Title: Joe Rogan Experience #2275 - Magnus Carlsen
Author: PowerfulJRE

Transcript:
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe
Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan
podcast by night all
day all right we're up and roll Magnus
Carlon ladies and gentlemen you want
some coffee no oh this is water uh tell
Jeff to bring in the coffee forgot to
bring in the coffee no no I'm good with
water well I need coffee I'm going to
keep up with you
buddy and of course Tony hinchliff is
here who's a gigantic chess fan and just
his pants yesterday when I told him you
were coming in and then immediately I
said you got to come with me and so
Tony's here as well it's an honor to
meet you man um I I I'm always
fascinated by people that are at the top
of something that's insanely difficult
like chess and I'm always wondering like
how much time is involved how much how
often do you play and when did you start
how old were you when you first started
playing I think my dad my dad is an avid
chess player so I think he uh t thought
that I might have some Talent so he
thought he taught me pretty early at
around five years old but at that time I
wasn't that
interested uh I was mostly into Legos
and I was into math and like sports
stats and I had my little flag book with
all um all the countries in the world
their flags and their inhabitants and
area and everything and I sort of that
that's what I did uh generally just um
taking in all the all the stats that I
could also with with sports reading the
sports section every day and I didn't
find chess that fun uh a couple years
later uh my older sister who year and a
half older than me she had she did a lot
of chess with with my dad I started
sitting in on them a bit and um I I
started liking it I really really wanted
to beat my sister as well at generally
everything and uh yeah from there on it
really just became uh became my thing
and it's you know been my main Hobby and
uh eventually work as well since yeah
obviously yeah it's F it's so funny
though a spark a competitive spark with
your sister is really what ignited you
to get going with it yeah the the funny
thing is like she's not competitive at
all so she hated the fact that I like I
wanted to play especially when I I I
realized that I could beat her uh and
she she she liked chess but she stopped
for for a while and only started when I
had become like good enough that there
wasn't a competition so it turned like
like my dad was right after all I just
needed um I just needed that um that
extra push yeah what a what a call I
think you've got some Talent what a call
grandm 12 was
it um 13 so actually the um the record
is um the record is 12 but uh most kids
these days honestly they they start so
early uh I was at a tournament in India
a few months ago and there's this guy
who's like A600 rated player and he's 3
years old and like I I'm
seeing I'm seeing the I'm seeing the
games like they are actually they're
actually decent um and yeah now there
there's this one kid from Argentina like
they call him the Messi of Chess who's
going to become a grandmas soon I think
he's he's only 10 so they're they're
really really
uh playing early these days but it's
it's it's good to see though because
like information is so easily accessible
these days like it takes a lot shorter
time to to get to get good at something
well it seems like now uh chess because
of social media it's like everything
else it's kind of exploding because
there's so many fascinating videos out
and then of course there was like the
big controversy with that uh young man
who you believe is a a big old cheater
that guy I I needed no the anal beads
thing is that a legitimate
Theory so it actually started in one of
U my friends streamer channel that like
one random guy said made made a comment
about anal beads and he was and he was
like H yeah maybe and then uh I think it
it
became it started taking the rounds in
Reddit and then Elon saw it tweeted
about it and then obviously it blew up
um I I actually spoke
to um I I think it was Mark andreon who
said like that would be one way to do it
yes but I really really really don't
believe that that has happened like I
think it has no um no connection to
reality but it just became it a thing of
its own so unfortunately this young man
we we'll explain the anal beads thing
but this this young man is a very
talented player but does has have a
history of some Shenanigans correct and
even admitted that he did a little bit
of cheating in order to move his rating
higher so he could play better
players yeah I mean he he's not admitted
to nearly the extent of of his of his
cheating uh but if you sort of um if you
sort of take what what ches com say then
yeah um his he cheated a bunch online in
uh in a certain period of time um partly
in tournaments but mostly in in casual
games as as he set himself to um to sort
of uh get himself up the standings and
play the best players in the world but
he is a very good player I think he has
become a good very good player yeah
interesting okay so what made you
convinced that he was cheating in that
particular game and by what method do
you think he could Poss possibly have
been doing this could you hear something
was it like
burn you're hearing
vibrations his his seed shift yeah
you're smelling something there's a wh
of something in the air um yeah I mean
that would have been um would have been
the Smoking Gun I suppose
but I think it there was a combination
of um of things though uh based on you
know the chess level that I uh that I
thought that he he had and that I'd seen
from from his game both playing against
him analyzing a little with him and
looking at his at his other games um
there were a lot of stories um back then
um the thing is also there's um there's
a Netflix documentary coming in a few
months that sort of EX where I'm telling
my side of the story um so I like I
cannot go too deep
into uh into everything but what I can
say was that there were there were a lot
of
factors um that made me very very
suspicious um and um I think ever since
then he has become better uh but there's
some still
something uh there's still something off
um both then and and now but yeah that's
so fascinating that as an elite chess
player you'd be able to recognize that
something is happening that's outside of
his
capabilities again um I'm not ruling out
the factor that chess players are
becoming more and more paranoid because
we do have chess engines that basically
have perfect chess right like anybody
with their their phone can as I think
Elon tweeted to to Gary once like my
iPhone can beat you at chess which is
which is which is the truth and this
means that you know anybody having
access to information it's it's
incredibly it's in incredibly dangerous
and I think top level chess has been a
lot based on on trust
and um whenever you have Outsiders whom
there are these stories about everybody
gets a bit a bit
jittery there there's like as people who
either like they burst onto the scene
then then they establish themselves and
people people know that they're legit
and so on it's it's not um it's not a
problem with with him
specifically
um I don't know it
was
um it's just he doesn't seem to be
playing or it didn't at that point seem
to be playing with
um with a particular style it seemed
that he either played kind of eh or he
just more or less played any position
very well in in certain games like he
could just switch from tactical to
positional play very easily
and uh it was um yeah it didn't didn't
smell good to me it still it still
doesn't
but um you know to some extent like he
he had his uh he had his lawsuit we've
all kind of moved a little bit on I
think I don't trust him a lot of other
top players still don't trust him um he
certainly
doesn't uh doesn't trust me or ches Loom
orario or whomever he felt wronged by um
but the problem is like once someone
admits that they cheated game especially
a game that has a lot of trust in it
like chess you're always going to think
like is he cheating now always but the
question is like what method like what
what do people do so if you're sitting
there you have no phone your pockets are
empty like what could you be doing that
could possibly be aiding you well first
of all like an invisible air piece um
that people use for exams and so on like
so but he would have to have a partner
with that yeah yeah he he would yeah
yeah um that would not have been
detected by the security system that
they um they used at that tournament um
they amped up the
security after the whole thing happened
check your ears yeah yeah they they
started checking their our ears and then
um you know we had a live tournament in
in Paris last year where I played him
where there was proper security where
all of these things would be picked up
and he didn't like he didn't play
to nearly the same uh to nearly the same
level there um so I think I I well I'm
not an expert in all of that but that's
what I've heard from people that that's
like the most obvious thing that it
could have uh that someone could have
done and it wouldn't be really that hard
to pull off considering the kind of um
security we have at at chess tournament
and this tournament had like a little
bit of security a lot of them like open
tournaments uh people are like one ing
in and out of the playing Hall there are
people in the playing Hall like
Spectators with their um um with their
smartphones uh on and taking pictures or
or whatever like going in and out like
they could make signals it's
it's um yeah it's it's it's it's it's
hard it's it's a big problem in chess
for sure yeah the so the anal beads
thing for people don't know what we're
talking about the the theory was that he
had vibrating anal beads that would
somehow or another through some sort of
code explain to him the moves and I've
thought about this for a lot longer than
I care to admit like what what kind of
code are you getting from inside your
butt that you're like okay I got it well
it would be like you know C4 or whatever
like it could tell you by how would it
say in your butt though well I mean i'
have to show
you luckily I brought one yeah so I'm in
right now no it would be like it would
it would Buzz right it would Buzz the
letters and then the numbers that would
indicate where you would move and there
would only be a piece or two so like the
first three vibrations would be letter C
and then yeah okay um yeah it's just a
sort of tech technological version of
ways people have cheated before there
was a scandal back in 2010 where um the
captain of the French team was helping
one of his um one of the French players
by eating he was basically just standing
in certain spots around the table to
tell him where toow where to move oh wow
that's crazy oh
wow dirty people out there it's wild
well it's such a competitive thing
whenever you have competitive things you
always have people that just want to win
at any cost right yeah it's also funny
that um one of his teammates from that
tournament uh worked with me for a long
time and he told me at like this guy was
like going out every night not taking
the tournament seriously at all but yeah
he had a good reason like he knew he was
going to he's partying he knew he was
going to win that's hilarious so that is
that the most egregious form of cheating
that you've ever seen or heard of um no
I I I actually played an open tournament
in Denmark about 20 years ago where
there was a guy who was playing
Grandmaster in the first round like this
was not a very good player and he was he
came drunk to the table and just
literally pulled out his phone and
opened open the chess program but of
course like he was immediately um so
that that wasn't of course nearly as as
nefarious but yeah that's just a [ __ ]
yeah yeah he was just yeah probably um
some other some other issues there
there's just such a it is such a
fascinating game because it's impossible
to play if you're dumb like there's
games that you could just be a savant
like an idiot savant but chess is like
it's the most impressive thing for
people to be unbelievably good
at I I don't know I think you can be I
think you be can be dumb and be like
fairly good at at chess um I think it it
like some intelligence certainly
certainly helps but after all um you a
lot of Chess is about learning patterns
right and basically anybody can can do
that so like applying them at a higher
level learning how to evaluate and so on
that sort of is what sets the the really
the best players apart from uh from
merely good players but I feel like
anybody could come become um quite
decent at um at the game but I do love
the fact that you know uh there are no
coincidences like there are no outside
factors well if you uh if you don't talk
other than cheating of course um but
it's just um um yeah were either
outsmarting your opponent or you're
getting outsmarted so for a guy like you
that excels above all what is the
difference in your preparation is it
just simply who you are as a person you
think or is it something about the
difference in your preparation without
giving away any secrets
obviously um I'm like known in in the
Chess World for being like a little bit
lazy I think uh the the thing is that I
um
can I pause you yeah yeah what do you
mean lazy like how's that possible no
the thing is like I've never been the
kind of person who wakes up in the
morning Works six seven hours and and
chess like a normal a normal job and
then um because a lot of them study
computers exactly like I've I think
about the game all the time like I play
online I I look at I look at games I me
read some youever play anonymously I
used to do that all the time um what a
blood bath that must be
but but I think I got humbled um One
Time by this Russian grandmas who um
asked somebody else asked me like if a
certain account on a certain website was
me and I was like yeah um I don't know
like I don't know who that is and this
guy went like yes that is you and he
listed up like five other accounts that
I thought nobody knew about that wow
that were that were by the way you play
yeah I think it's
it's it's playing strength playing style
because I I tried to switch up my
openings on different accounts to not
make it obvious that it's it's me and
and I have like a style where I switch
that up a lot so it makes it a bit
easier but I think you could just tell
by um by the playing style so that is
crazy these these days I just I play
with my um my own name um I like I'm I
don't really care about that anymore
yeah um so do most professional players
study chess all day long at the highest
level I think um I think quite a few do
uh I I mean I don't know like people's
day-to-day activities so you guys don't
talk about it not that much um the
people that I've worked with they
certainly study chess a lot uh but
others I'm I'm not quite sure um the
thing is that chess has always like
still been a bit of a hobby for me that
once it start starts to feel like work
then it's it's it's it's harder for me I
had a I had a chess coach when I was uh
when I was little I I went to have
sessions once a week which I loved and
then he started giving me homework and
like yeah I I I told him like quickly
like I yeah I don't I don't like I don't
like homework but I
would but I would still spend a lot of
time like reading books playing online
this the things that I still do but I
would do them for fun and and that was
the difference between me and the other
kids is that they would go to chess
practice they would maybe even do their
homework but they weren't living and
breathing um sort of the game that that
uh in the way that I was like think
about it all the time like I'm thinking
about the game while I'm sitting on on
this chair like I'm still analyzing a
game that I played today like it never
goes completely out of out of my mind um
and I think a lot of very good chess
players do that but like casual chess
players no of course so maybe the thing
is discipline versus enthusiasm
enthusiasm causes Obsession and
enjoyment which probably leads to better
retention of information whereas just
pure discipline for the sake of like I
have to do the work in order to get
better you're missing this enjoyment
you're missing this enthusiasm for it
that you have managed to although
absorbing so much information and
playing all the time you've managed to
keep it playful and fun I think so I
think this is definitely the way that
works for me maybe for others um I I
think for anybody like if you want to be
great at something you have to be
obsessed with it yes and yeah it has to
come from it has to come from within
like nobody can um yeah maybe in in
certain in certain Sports you can get
you can get that good purely by very
very targeted practice and a lot of load
of hours but um yeah I I think um for me
it's just the way that it's just the way
that it um that it works and um I do
like process the even though like I I
don't necessarily study like I don't
don't deliberately practice all the time
I still process the information so it's
still whatever whatever the method is it
certainly works but it's interesting
because you've been able to excel above
so many and it makes me wonder like what
I always am fascinated by some whether
it's a Tiger Woods or whether whatever
the the athlete is or whatever the the
game they play what separates the very
best from everyone else like I know in
martial arts there's a series of factors
that have to do with genetics training
coaches sparring partners and then
ultimately discipline and drive but with
chess it's all mental is physical has
nothing to do with it so do you think
it's a genetic thing do you think you
have a unique mind for chess is this you
think it's this balance that you keep
with enthusiasm and Obsession like what
do you think separates you from everyone
else I think it has to be a
um a variety of factors I think there's
no doubt that I'm incredibly naturally
gifted at the game like otherwise I
wouldn't have come come this far and my
my dad um is incredibly good with with
numbers he started playing chess quite
late but became
um but became decent like my mother was
quite smart and
my sisters are very uh intelligent too
so like it's clear that you know um
there are some good good genes and I
just you know I happen to find also an
environment early on um where I lived
near alsoo which had um the probably the
best chest environment there was in in
Norway at the very least where there
were um I had access to to coaches and I
had access to like a little training
group of of other ambitious
kids um after that you know um I think
the most important thing that I've that
I've done is that I haven't really
listened to people who want me to do
things like a certain way because that's
the way things have always been done
especially with uh the Soviet chess
school that was the dominant one for for
so many years so I've always sort of
gone my own way try to have as much um
fun everything has to be about enjoyment
and yeah I I cannot tell you why but I
just like understand the game better
better than the others like I I'm I
don't calculate necessarily as far as
the other but my intuition like for
short lines um constantly evaluating is
is just is just better it's just
it it's always just such an interesting
thing to analyze like high performers
you know and just to wonder like what it
is that separates High performers when
you say your father started playing late
how old was he oh I think he started
playing um about 14 15 something like
that I I in in chess that's that's very
but he never he never like took it took
it seriously enough that that he wanted
to like he he pursued it but um as a
hobby
as a hobby yeah well you when you say
take it seriously you mean like you do
right what this is what makes me think
about epigenetics like I we we still
don't exactly know how much information
is transferred between parents to
children and it seems like there's a lot
of talents whether it's like singing
Talent OR Sports talent that you have to
wonder like is that coming from genes or
is that coming from the environment
which his child grows up which his
person or is it a combination of all
those factors like I wonder if someone
gets really an very intelligent person
gets very good at chess early on I
wonder if some information or some
proclivity for the game gets transferred
I I think uh the reaction in in the
chess community at least with certain
people was uh more along the lines of
how could such a lousy player have such
a good son at chess with with my dad
um and the the fact is as well that
I the there are practically no um there
are many couples of um you know uh like
both mother and father are Grandmasters
in chess but I don't think any of them
have had Sons or daughters that are
Grandmasters so where whereas you see
anywhere like in the NBA or the NHL or
in football or wherever like it happens
all the time um so I I don't I cannot
say exactly why that is but it does
suggest that you know uh it's not a
given at least with genetics that you're
um that your children are are going to I
have an alternate theory for that I
wonder if you're a child and your
parents are absolutely obsessed with a
game if it's annoying and and you're
like [ __ ] this game like I want to go
play in the park and my parents don't
even pay attention to me this is
[ __ ] right you know like like
there's a lot of children of Alcoholics
that will not drink they won't even try
it cuz they've seen the effects of but I
wonder that if it's like you see cuz
chess is an obsessive game like I
remember when Howard Stern was playing
it and I would listen to him talk about
it on the radio and about how he started
hiring a coach and he was playing all
the time and he's improving his rating
this I was like oh this is eating up
your mind like it's a game that gets in
your
bones it really does because like the
entry is not so easy right like you
don't like just get it immediately and
you don't necessarily get enjoyment
out of it immediately as you start to
play so you have to spend you have to
spend time on it and then I think when
you're trying to do something hard then
it becomes much more rewarding and it
becomes it's easier for that to become
an obsession when when it you start to
get that reward so the good thing about
that controversy with cheating was that
I think it elevated the profile of Chess
because it became mainstream news it was
like a a big issue do like I think there
was a positive aspect of it in terms of
the publicity of the game do you do you
agree with that oh yeah for sure
um I I think for uh for any for you know
for any field of uh that's trying to to
achieve something you know with with
publicity there's always going to be um
a little bit of of a negative with what
exactly we're we're connected with right
because this is uh everybody knows chess
and cheating but overall I think it's
been it's been massively uh massively
positive um you know hopefully the uh
the Netflix thing going coming up in a
year even though like you explain it to
people what it's a Netflix Untold
documentary so basically it's a series
of uh Sports documentaries and they're
doing that it's not something that I
like wanted to necessarily be be part of
but I do recognize the fact that these
things raise the profile of
of of the game and and you see now like
every everywhere people people like it
CH is showing up in people's algorithms
on YouTube Tik Tok Instagram everywhere
so it's just like much more in the in
the Z guide than it used to be yeah it's
it's certainly showing up on mine it
shows up on mine all yours right oh yeah
well you've always been a giant chess
fan well it's actually a newer thing but
when I when I got into it it was just
everything now it's what I do right
before bed I fall asleep usually I fall
asleep during actual games online on my
phone you're driving him
crazy how could that like how could that
happen I'm exhausted what do you do when
you wake up oh that's that's the yeah
it's total opposite L yeah no I I wake
up and I look at the board and it said
you resigned because I went over my time
or whatever I ran just ran out of time
how many times have you resigned it
happens an embarrassing lot amount it's
how I fall asleep now is playing chess
but what you will appreciate is that
when I fall asleep playing chess like
when I fall asleep I'm still playing the
game in my dream sometimes and sometimes
the game will go all night and it'll be
like this never ending game and pieces
will pop back up that I've already gone
that that sounds amazing like I would
like obviously that would never happen
to me like I I I I you know I like to
play a game of chess on my on my my
phone or my iPad whenever I have
when I have some time especially like if
I know that I have 15 minutes or
whatever and then if something comes up
like my wife tells me like I have to be
somewhere I have to do something it's
like can you just finish the game like
no I cannot resign the game what are you
talking about
yeah yeah obviously that's different
though yeah you can't just resign that's
no you got to ride that [ __ ] out yeah
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right um yeah especially if it if
especially if I'm playing somebody whom
I'm who is a little bit of a rival but
it's like yeah no that's not that's not
going to happen no chance because like
every time like I lose games it's it's a
little bit of a story right in in the
Chess World so I prefer to happen as as
solom as as possible I played a little
bit of Chess when I was young but I I
never really got into it but my real
introduction where I got fascinated with
chess was actually at a pool hall
because people in the pool hall would
play chess sometimes but there was this
one guy who went to jail and uh in jail
he learned how to play chess with his
head in his in his mind and then there
was a young kid who was a Grandmaster
who was like 16 17 years old somewhere
around then really really good chess
player who kind of like lost his way and
started hanging around in pool halls and
gambling and being a weirdo and I
watched these two guys play chess with
just words and I was like what are you
doing like what I was like I think I was
22 or 23 at the time and I was like what
are you doing and they're explaining to
me that they're playing chess memorizing
the board in their head and I'm like
that's [ __ ] crazy and then I saw a
video of you
blindfolded playing how many people how
many how many people did you play was
the most people you've ever played
blindfolded I think I've played 12 uh
but the world record is something like
50 it's that's that's crazy
crazy 12 you've played 12 people
blindfolded yeah
um for me that's as long as people are
the people I'm playing are kind of
decent at chess that actually kind of
make that makes it easier because it's
easier to store the games when I
recognize the patterns and so on when
people start making weird moves that I
cannot really recognize oh so this this
is another one actually this is a
blindfold timed simil like there are
fewer games but what's Difficult about
these is that the moves do not come to
me in a sequence so like uh the
percenter will tell me on boo on
board um two e takes D5 and then all of
a sudden on board one E6 and then on
board on board two again and so on so
that that makes a bit um oh see if to
jump back and forth so in the other
games there's a sequence where the
player even though if they know what
move they're going to take they must
wait until they turn ex exactly that's
kind of the normal way of playing um of
playing a Simo I think the last time
that I played a proper blindfold Simo
was at an event um in Vienna back in I I
think 2015 and then I had some very nice
but spicy Chinese food before the game I
I sat down and like my stomach was
acting up I couldn't think so I I I
played for 10 minutes I realized that I
cannot do this I like I ran away for for
15 minutes and then I came back and I
finished I finished the game but ever
ever since that um it feels
like um I've like I've done it but it
and now it just seems incredibly
incredibly hard to um to do again but do
you prepare when you're doing something
like this when you're getting ready to
do a blindfolded multi-game thing no not
really because it's like if if my mind
is on then it's really not that hard I
feel um so no uh I the the preparation
that I do is right there I see my my
opponents so like I sign a certain phase
to a certain seat like a certain number
and and and so on uh so that's just
about what what I uh what I do so you
assign their face and you think of their
face as they're playing yeah yeah face
like number one it's that
appliation yeah and so on and are
you what are you seeing in your mind
when you're envisioning the the table
when you're when you're looking at the
board are you are are you merely
thinking of positions are you actually
thinking of the pieces like how are you
breaking it down no I just see the
chessboard in my head just see a
completely like 3D chessboard in your
head yeah so it's um and then when I'm
playing a Simo I just really think about
one at a time and I I kind of store the
others um away and um but that's so
crazy like when your five six moves in
and you're thinking of all these pieces
moving around and you've got it re
remembered you've completely memorized
each position of 12 different
boards yeah so so like the difficult
difficult part of it that where things
sometimes go wrong is that so generally
I remember all the games that I've
played but I don't remember every move I
remember like the in Broad Strokes what
happened and this is what can happen in
these blindfold games as well sometimes
like I I can remember everything that's
going on but maybe there's a Pawn on the
side that I cannot remember if it moved
one square or not that's the thing that
can be um that can be um difficult and I
I do we used to have these blindf like
professional tournaments actually
um that used to be like both fun but
also totally exhausting um and then we
would play on on a computer so we'd have
like a
blank like a blank chess board where we
would just click from one square to
another and then whenever your opponent
moved their move would would pop up on
on the screen and I've had uh and also
the software will will tell you if
you're making an illegal move so I've
had people like lose track and then you
see them just clicking
frenetically trying to figure out what
the position was like there was one guy
whom I played like he thought his Rook
was on a certain file and if it was on
that file he would be able to save a
draw so I think he tried every single
Rook move on that file hoping that the
Rook was there uh but like obviously I
knew that that it that it wasn't um but
yeah um overall I feel like honestly
like blindfold chess is is a bit of a
party trick in the sense that for the
very top players it's not that hard but
obviously for non like serious chess
players it seems um it seems incredibly
um uh incredibly hard but I I I'm I'm
I'm sure that for instance like solving
Ruby's cube is really really easy for
those who who know how to do it quickly
right but it's still looks incredibly
impressive for for Outsiders have you
seen they used a computer with AI to do
a Rubik's Cube in less than a second no
I didn't see that wow yeah see if you
can find it Jamie it's crazy it just
goes it just spins it I've never figured
that [ __ ] out that's crazy it's a
there's a a sequence of moves if you
follow a sequence of moves you can
actually get it to do it
automatically yeah someone explained it
to me once and they did it and I was
like what I don't remember what it was
cuz I don't give a [ __ ] yeah it was just
like eight eight times this way eight
times that way eight times this then you
just keep doing it and then eventually
it'll be all flattened out at a certain
point in time wow yeah but this computer
does it like you do Rubik's Cube too no
no no no I I'm talking out of my ass
like
I I think the world record is only like
3 seconds or something like it's it's
something
absolutely insane um imagine the time
you could have exp building a business
raising a
family you're the [ __ ] world record
all the same color yeah green red so
dumb yeah well we we all have to spend
our time watch this watch this computer
do it
wow how crazy is that ready
go yeah less than a second wow that
crazy show it again in real time
so give up kids give up give up the
computer figured it out that's that's a
dumb game but do you play other games as
well no not that not that much um my
parents sort of brainwashed me when when
I was young into thinking that computer
games are no fun and really yeah yeah
yeah um but you're a grown man now
you've realized that's a lie yeah yeah I
I have but it's still I can see you Call
of Duty [ __ ] people
headphones on the thing is
like um the thing is like I actually got
a um I I got a PlayStation recently uh
but like my my wife is playing GTA and
all of these FPS games and I'm like
playing some you know chill FIFA or
something so but but the thing about
that is that um uh I didn't really spend
that much time on those those things
when I was I was little um which I think
was a good thing like I was doing I was
doing some sports and I was doing a lot
of lot of Chess not so much school but I
I I kind of found time for for um
everything else and I think um I think
it was an important part of my chess
education as well that I think some of
the kids today are are missing that I
actually learned chess on a physical
board uh I was able to practice from a
fairly young age playing online but I
wasn't allowed to use the computer for
more than couple of hours a week right
so I had to spend them really well
playing chess otherwise I would just sit
there with with my board with my books
and you know try and um figure things
out yeah the the thing about video games
is the narrative was always video games
are a huge waste of time and if you do
it you're not going to get anywhere in
life the problem with that is now people
make a lot of money playing video games
and they've also shown that there's some
there's some benefits video games that
leak over into other things like for
instance they found out that surgeons
who play video games regularly make what
is it like 25% less errors it 37% 37%
less errors that's a like I would feel
like if there was a factor in medical
school and they said well if you do not
uh do this you will make 37% more
mistakes they would force you to engage
in that whatever it is it's like
whatever whatever particular discipline
that was like if you want to be a
surgeon you must do this I would say if
you want to be a surgeon you should
[ __ ] play video games because these
people are
37% less likely to screw up an operation
that's why I'm not a
surgeon but I'm saying it's like video
games are not necessarily a waste of
time and they've also shown there's
cognitive benefits that can be uh gotten
from playing video games on a regular
basis things that would which does make
sense but it just it seems like a
frivolous Pursuit whereas chess is like
a noble and very respected Pursuit I I'm
glad you say that like we've we've offic
that that is what chess has though that
it it is very respected among the
general population and it does have that
different standings from from another a
lot of other games it's like I'm not
here to [ __ ] on video games for sure
like I I know like like you do that
there there are studies that show that
it's that can be be helpful I think with
with anything um if you're obsess over
something the only thing you will become
good at is that particular thing like I
have with um with uh with chess I just
think for me
specifically um for me specifically it
was probably a um a good thing that that
made me just sit and focus on on chess
rather than um um rather than do all
sorts of um other things yeah oh most
certainly because video games are very
very addictive I had to stop playing
video games we used to have a whole
local area network at our old Studio
we'd all play quake and it was a real
problem like I was just I just wanted to
end the podcast so I could go play quake
and then we play for hours and
eventually got to a point where I was
like okay I got to quit again just cold
turkey never again leave it alone
because they're just too fun and if you
have other things you have obligations
like chess like you're an actual
professional chess player
Call of Duty or whatever you're playing
Quake it's gonna eat your
time I remember like when when I first
moved out um you know I was technically
a chess professional but I didn't have a
lot of time to um yeah um I had a lot of
time to kill when I when I was home so
and I got myself a PlayStation played a
ton of FIFA back then and there was
there was a GameStop near near me that
like they they made a lot of money of me
just buying new controllers all the time
because I would throw them into to to
the wall but I I I I have that same
personality that I become become
obsessed with things and then I yeah
same I just have to quit cold turkey
that's the only way that that works yeah
I I think I mean this is why I've
avoided Golf and like Tony's big on Golf
and so's Jamie it's like I see what it
is I'm sure I would love it but I don't
have that time the time during the day
well I can tell you that I always
thought well I I wouldn't say that but I
always thought that I would get into
golf later in life and then I decided
more or less a year ago that I was going
to start and now I am obsessed and it's
all I want to do so I can I can I can
100% I can 100% relate but my wife knows
that I'm so happy when I come back from
golf that it's like better if I get to
do it uh quite often yeah even just you
fake being happy so you can keep doing
it
no no no no like yeah they say that's
ruining Canelo Alvarez you know there's
been a lot of criticism in the boxing
world and particularly in like you know
some of his promoters and things along
those lines where they've criticized his
his he's obsessive he plays every day
even when he's in Camp yeah it's a
tricky thing if they do that with him
and I obviously see them do it with
Trump but they're to you have to golf to
understand what golfing does to you it
appears from the outside that people are
drinking and smoking pot and having a
good old time out there and giggling
around farting around with their friends
but the touch grass
meditative element it truly is like he
was saying like I'm in such a crazy good
mood after golf everybody at the comedy
club can notice it like it's like an
upper it gives you a massive burst of
energy so like the the
what am I thinking of the uh you know
just the bad reputation that golf has
like I would want my president golfing a
couple times a week knowing the effects
that it gives you a much clearer mind a
big burst of energy you would think it
would be exhausting walking around the
woods or grass for 4 hours but for some
reason it's totally the opposite it's
it's whether it's the Sun the grass the
this the that the differential going
from a powerful thing to a mid-range
thing to the delicate touch and accuracy
of putting these repetitive things for
some reason it's a mind clearer and kind
of an energy Giver whereas video games
and other things make you depressed I
don't you know it's almost impossible to
be down or depressed after
golfing well it's it's certainly a
stimulating game right cuz you it's hand
ey coordination calculation you know
managing the the lay of the land the way
the roles of the hills are yeah and all
those factors I think like this is
something that I think people genuinely
need in life yeah and I think it's one
of the reasons why people respect chess
so much is because they know how
difficult it is and they know that all
this is going on and that they see you
two just staring at the board looking at
these pieces and and calculating this
insane number of possibilities that
could emit from each individ idual move
it's like that
stimulation when when someone gets good
at a game I think it's very valuable for
you and I think that can apply to all
sorts of things in life so I agree with
you I would want the president to play
golf too I'd want him to find something
whatever it is find a thing that you can
Excel out other than just being the
president yeah yeah even if it was Call
of Duty if that would be wild I wouldn't
want that the president going [ __ ] yeah
we had that it was George W bush and
there was no video game
system oh it's dark yeah it is dark well
I mean they literally use PlayStation
[ __ ] controllers when they were using
drones I don't know if they still do it
now I think now they have more
sophisticated setups but that one of the
reasons why they were using them is
because so many people were accustomed
to those you get kids that have been
playing you know Madden 10 hours a day
for 15 [ __ ] years and then you give
them the same controller and they're
like oh yeah I can [ __ ] drop some
bombs on people like not problem at all
that's that's horrible it's dark yeah
and all of a sudden like these kills
that you have in a video game like you
you think of it in the same way like it
well it really haunts those people
apparently there's a very specific type
of PTSD that drone operators get it's
it's because they see the people
sometimes for days in advance so they're
doing surveillance they're waiting for
the moment when they get the green light
they see these people they see them with
their families they're watching them
from above and then and then they drop
the bombs on them and then they cease to
exist and this is happening on
completely the other side of the world
yeah they just press X on the controller
yeah but if you want to get good at that
you should probably play play video
games it's a job for everybody out there
Magnus like I'm I'm I'm also trying to
think like could you get surgeons to be
thrown off Raiders probably doesn't work
that way no probably doesn't work that
well I best surgeons just whatever hand
eye coordination that they have is
probably so intricate that they could
probably excel at anything they'd
probably get good at video games like a
very good surgeon who's never played
video games probably get really good at
video games really quickly because the
the communication between your hands
there's also probably a tricky part of
that stat where the younger people or
the ones playing the video games that
probably wouldn't slip up with their
hands as easily as an older surgeon that
has never played video games right yes
right right right yeah that's a good
point it's it's you know it's
interesting that chess is uniquely the
game that's respected like probably out
of all even if you play golf people can
think oh you're a [ __ ] up you say you
play chess like oh that must be an
intelligent man it's probably the most
uniquely rewarded game in terms of the
the way the people respect it in
society yeah it we're very lucky that it
has this unique position whether that's
deserved um I I don't know but there's
just something about the fact that it's
you know it's a very very simple game um
but it's it's still so
infinitely uh difficult the thing now
the thing now though is that we're
trying to actually make it a bit more
more difficult for uh a classical form
of of Chess um because now computers are
so strong
preparation has gone so far
that the thought of like sitting down at
the board and just thinking on your own
from the very get-go it's not it's not
there anymore anybody who's really good
at chess like they um anybody can can
learn the best openings like very
quickly even if you go like 10 20 years
ago um you could
play um you could play for instance in
the chess Olympia was which is the which
is the the biggest team like Nation
tournament world and you could play
against the the best player from from
let's say Colombia and you know you
would know that they have a certain
skills but they might not have the same
set of openings right now all of these
like they're kids everywhere um and they
just like they know their stuff so well
so now we're like testing out new
formats uh one that we call freestyle
which is basically there are 960
starting possible starting positions if
you Shuffle the pieces on the first Rank
and basically like you start out you
just draw the position 10 minutes before
the game no preparation whatsoever and
you basically start with like in gaming
a new map every single game um so that's
sort of
for the traditionalists that's not like
the same the same game so like there are
some people who don't like it but for
the professionals
it's an it's a chance like to um to
use um to to use their their skills
because otherwise chess is moving like
it's become becoming faster like chess
used to be used to be an art science
everything with the way things are now
it's it's just very fast and it's all
game Sports and so on like I feel like
with with thinking from the very first
move you're bringing some of the other
factors um back as well I what I think
it's really unique about today is that
kids today who are coming up are not
just studying from books and from
coaching but you can watch so many great
games instantaneously anytime you want
this is what's so unique about today and
I think it applies to all sports I think
it applies to all games I think it
applies to all I think it applies to
standup comedy as well I think it's one
of the reasons why the younger guys are
so good it's like you get to see very
high level stuff which gets into your
mind that this is how to play at a very
early age and you can be obsessed and
just absorb so much more yeah and and
you see there are such different
approaches as well even even with uh
with the kids like I had a training camp
uh a few years ago with with a kid
called alza fuia from uh he plays for
France now but he's from Iran originally
I think he was about 14 then and my my
chess coach has had like recommended
that we um that we bring him in because
he said that this is the most talented
kid out there so we have this camp where
typically everybody has their their
laptop and there's a chessboard in the
Middle where you sort of um and and you
sort of look at your own thing and then
some things together on the board and
you you throw out ideas mostly for for
openings but also sometimes other little
exercises and so on and this kid he
would have his have his life top where
he would um where he would analyze a
certain position and then he would play
games like for money on that same site
at the same time so that he could buy
Cloud um Cloud engine times because like
the very best engines um they're they're
stronger like if they're in the the
cloud then from your own uh than from
your own uh laptop generally so you
would buy time for for that by playing
games like one minute games on that
server he would play five minute games
on another server and he would analyze
with us on the board and he was still
like following everything like he had no
problems what's so whatever just being
there so like it's just um yeah that's
that's one way of doing it like he
basically became one of the best players
in the world by just constantly playing
chess all the time and mostly like
really quick games and then you have the
current classical world champion from
from India gues like he doesn't play
casual games at all he just studies his
ass off all the time um and he's also
like he's not good at at at rabbit chess
he's not good at Blitz he's not good at
other other forms uh but he has he has
made all his study studies about uh
classical chess um he didn't even own
like chess software on his computer
before he was like 13 wow and he was a
Grandmaster wow at that time um but it's
it's interesting to see that there are
such different ways um to develop even
even these days I think I just think
it's fascinating human beings capacity
to excel at things and that you really
only know when someone pushes it a
little a little bit further like this
guy playing these all these games
simultaneously you know what I mean it's
like when you when if everybody's doing
it one way if everybody's only playing
you know a few games a day and hanging
out like you'll probably all stay at the
same level but if you got one [ __ ]
psychopath in the group that's online
and is playing and is reading books and
is that guy is going to pass everybody
and then everybody else realizes like oh
that's possible you I could have gotten
as good as him I better really bear down
yeah because you you could also see that
in these guys playing style the guy who
has been playing like constantly all the
time from when he was little he has
fantastic instincts especially with with
little time he just knows where the
pieces go and like he's the only one of
the kids who has that kind of feeling um
the Indian guy on the other hand from
the way he studies he's like during
games like he's meticulous he calculates
like sees every position as a problem he
has to solve more than oh what does my
intuition tell me oh I'll do I'll do
this uh it's like for him it's more well
this is possible this is possible let me
like try and uh see this all all the way
all the way through so it's just yeah
it's just very very different and um
they they they call it like the tortoise
and the hair some uh sometimes and then
uh in certain situations the tortoise
will win and other situations the the
hair will win right so in so there's
different types of tournaments and
there's some tournaments that have no
time limit for for moves oh there's
always a time there's always a time
limit what's the traditional time limit
uh what it used to be in in chess was um
you'd have two hours for 40 moves then
you would have an hour for the next 20
moves and then half an hour for the rest
of the game so a maximum 7
hours
um and uh that form is still is still
being played uh and then you have faster
forms of Chess which is Blitz chess
which is usually five or or three
minutes and Rapid chess uh which is
somewhere from from 10 to uh to to 30 uh
minutes yeah did you ever before you
were known did you ever go to Washington
Square Park and play those
Hustlers uh no I actually went there in
um 20 uh 10 but I think I think some
people recognize me back then as well I
think it's a bit of a myth though um how
uh how good they are like they're
they're they're like okay but they're
not like your level no they're not
grandmas level there was one guy though
I don't remember I don't remember what
was
um uh what's the name of like it's up by
um you know Columbia University there's
a park up there where they're playing
chess as well there I played against the
guy uh who played like a very strange
opening as white like he put like just a
couple of Pawns one square forward and
then he started developing his pieces
very slowly so F at first I thought this
guy has no idea what he's doing but then
it turned out like he actually had a
system so after like 10 15 moves I was
in a lot of trouble uh and then and then
like the game became super concrete and
tactical and and and I and I won um um
but it yeah it struck me that this guy
like had it just I think he just played
in a park all his life so he had
developed a certain system W that was
actually like kind of effective if you
don't know what you're doing uh against
it so that was that was kind of kind of
interesting I'm like he was fairly old
so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole
life without ever learning any kind of
opening Theory or or something like that
he just had yeah he was doing his own
thing fascinating did can you ever learn
something from people that have an
unorthodox approach like that oh yeah
for sure um it's it's happened several
times um there was um there was like my
dad used to play a ton of Chess at home
like he used to have a home office and
then certain times he'd appear to be um
focused on his in his work but I knew
like a certain look in his eye which
told me that he was actually playing
chess so I would go over and and watch
he like I go way and then at some point
where I was already a lot better than
him um he played a certain opening as as
white and I told him like what what is
this opening like where did you learn
this and he said well you taught me the
very same opening but with the black
pieces so I thought I was going to play
it as white like with with um one Temple
more right because you're playing you're
moving first I was like I like I never
like I'm one of the best players in the
world and I never thought of that so I
actually took up that line and I used it
I used it with success against some of
the best players in the world wow so
I've like I've I don't know if that
variation has a name like I've seen some
other players play it afterwards as well
uh but I just call it the um the Henry
Carlson variation that's really
interesting your dad must be pretty
proud of that he he is very
proud it's funny though that my my my
dad and my my sisters my two of my
sisters they they played a bit of
competitive U chess as well um I think
at some point in time like I they wanted
to learn a couple of openings so I
taught them a couple of openings and I
think all of them just never played
anything anything else basically so they
they certainly didn't have the same kind
of passion to um to study but I'm glad I
was able to um to push them into to some
some decent Lin very how do you decide
what opening to
choose um and do you ever decide an
opening and go [ __ ] I shouldn't have
done that one yeah yeah sometimes
honestly uh sometimes I I don't know
what to do so I just randomize because I
think
um at a certain time like you might
think that against this opponent you
should play a little bit of more of an
aggressive opening but then maybe I feel
good about my tournament standing so I
don't want to mess that up so it's easy
to go for a safer approach when like the
optimal approach would be a bit more
aggressive and then like if you
randomize it then you will occasionally
go for the for the more aggressive
approach so that's what I sometimes do
is just I randomize it and then I just
sort of accept the the outcome and it
makes me more um more unpredictable it
makes me harder to um to prepare against
um as well so that's what I sometimes do
it's not like it's not going to be out
there but it's going to be between like
two or three options that I I think are
roughly equivalent they're just sty
stylistically different so when you say
randomize like how many openings do you
have that you pursue on a regular
basis oh it's it's hard to that's hard
to say um probably probably with whes I
have
like uh five or six options that I can
that I can go to but only like two or
three that I I feel really good about
and I think similarly um similarly with
black so and then when you randomize you
just go in your head and one of them
stands out for you and you say okay this
is no I just like have an app on my
phone and just roll the dice yeah yeah
oh wow wow
wow and I I think
H honestly a lot of people could could
benefit from that because you you
agonize over these minute decisions like
you spend a lot of mental energy before
a certain game agonizing over what
opening you're going to play and if you
know that you you're going to make a
decent choice but you leave all the
agonizing to to like there's nothing
because it's it's left to to chance it
makes it makes it a lot a lot easier
that makes sense when now you were
saying mental energy is do you you were
talking about the spicy Chinese food
incident but do you uh normally have a
method of like when you eat vitamins you
take is there certain things that you do
to optimize your your your
Clarity yeah like if if I'm playing if
I'm playing an early early afternoon
game for instance like starting at 1 I I
Tred to eat like one big meal uh before
that we just generally uh like a big
omelette with some some kind of salad
and um but you eat pretty clean before a
big yeah I usually I usually do um
sometimes like after games like I will
eat something like even some desserts
and so on uh but before the games I I
try and keep it keep it fairly fairly
clean and I actually learned that when I
was when I was little like sometimes
like my parents they were generally
quite strict about sweets and so on but
sometimes I would eat sweets during
tournament then you know my um my blood
sugar would drop like crazy and I would
start making making mistakes uh and so
that's something that I I learned quite
quickly that I shouldn't do do you ever
mess around with vitamins or neut
Tropics or anything like that things
that nutrients that help memory no I I
think
um I I think it's a little bit about the
way that I was was raised like i' never
take medicine unless I I kind of have to
I don't really take supplements or or um
or or anything like that so um I
probably I I probably should uh like
it's it's not a bad idea um like my wife
is half American like she's completely
different like she takes five kinds of
vitamins every every single day she's
very meticulous about it but yeah I
don't know I've never um get her to make
you up some little packets yeah maybe I
think it'll probably have an impact on
you I mean it's extraordinary if you
think about how good you are without it
like any little thing that could give
you a very slight Edge and I think that
vitamins for sure give you a slight Edge
particularly in um neut Tropics there's
a bunch of different vitamins that have
been shown through clinical trials to
improve cognitive performance you know
um theanine there's U acetylcholine a
bunch of different things that enhance
memory that are essentially just
nutrients what's the new thing that
people are are doing like uh keratin or
something like that ketamine no no no
not ketamine but uh no no no it's not
ketamine um creatine creatine creatine
creatine yes creatine is was a
bodybuilding supplement that was almost
akin to steroids in the 1990s people you
think it was cheating and then they
realize well it's just a component of
food but uh one of the things that
creatine does that's very extraordinary
is um it aids in performance when you're
sleep deprived so if you ever find
yourself sleep deprived and you have to
do something where you have to use your
mind creatine is a fantastic supplement
for that well I mean I woke up today and
like I think my my watch set was that my
sleep was like I got 15 like I slept for
5 hours but I got 15 minutes of R sleep
like it was really really bad so that's
what I could have I could I could have
used that um CU I was playing a earlier
today so I could I could have used that
but yeah creatine is something that
everybody should take men women children
everybody should take creatine it's a
really good supplement super safe and uh
it does it aids in strength and Muscle
Recovery and stuff like that but it also
has a lot of cognitive benefits just
generally just like a very good safe
supplement to take what does it say here
Jan cognitive function studies suggest
that creatine supplementation May
improve cognitive function including
memory attention and reasoning it may
increase brain energy levels by boosting
endine triphosphate production ATP which
is essential for brain function creatine
has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory
properties that may protect brain cells
from damage caused by oxidative stress
and neurotoxins may help R so it's it
does a lot of different things if you
Google it there's a ton of different
benefits I take it in gummy form I take
creatine gummies every day they're
delicious it's easy I just pop a bunch
of 5 milligrams I don't know we have any
of those Tri creates here I don't think
so yeah I think I have them out there
um but they're great you know it's easy
I put a bag in my car take them all the
time I've I've noticed a difference I
just think with a guy like you well your
brain is everything but you're you're
kicking ass so like why listen to me no
no eat cheeseburgers and [ __ ] around see
what happens no but it it it is the
thing though that on certain days I S I
sort of just accept that you know my
brain is not going to work as good work
as good and it's it's it's frustrating
especially if you got a if you got a big
game and you know that you're starting
down to zero because your brain is not
working the way it's supposed to be yeah
I feel that with podcasting all the time
and the the real danger is if I do that
if my brain's not on Full Tilt and I'm
talking to a scientist and I'm like oh
like we have to talk about quantum
physics like this I I have to like have
good questions have to be able to follow
what you're saying because it's so
esoteric you know it's weird that the
brain just doesn't always work exactly
how you want it to and honestly chess is
one of the worst things to do sleep
deprived because I think creativ
creativity usually uh is enhanced when
you're when you're not feeling well when
you're when you're sleep deprived but
that's generally not what you need in
chess like you need to minimize mistakes
you need precision and all of all of my
intuition all of that is just so much
worse when I'm not feeling uh not
feeling on top of uh on top of my game
so do you have a specific thing you do
when you're feeling not on top of your
game do you like double check things in
your mind do you have a a process you
you follow I just try to play like a
simpler game where where it's not as
where it's not as complicated really uh
and when you're feeling good then you go
for it no honestly when when I feel like
good I don't think about these things
it's just a state of it's just a state
of flow uh where I know I know how much
risk to take like I I I I just
yeah um so what what is the mindset like
if you're in a world championship game
and you it's down to these like what
what is the state of mind like when
you're in the middle of
it honestly when I'm at my best I'm just
like pure laser focused and um I'm just
calm and not thinking about anything
other than just in the moment just in
the moment yeah just in the the work is
already done you already know the game
so now it's just reacting and moving and
calculating yeah I mean I I had um I had
a game and 20 last classical World
Championship I played in 2021 where um
the first five games were drawn honestly
like I could have probably been down at
that point as well sixth game was a
super super long game um almost eight
hours and I think for the last hour and
a half two hours I was pretty short on
time but I remember like I was just so
focused and so calm and
afterwards I was just like yeah I could
have kept going forever like I was just
there um and it was exactly what I
needed I ended up grinding out grinding
out win and and in in those classical
games like once you get a lead like that
is so big because it's so hard to win
actually win games at that that level
with that level of preparation um so
that was that was really big but yeah
that's that I've only I I've only had I
feel like a few days where I feel like
I'm just like completely in the moment
usually it's a bit more messy than that
but like when it happens is just um yeah
the best feeling that's amazing that
it's only been a few days where you've
been fully in the moment I'm rarely
happy after I
play I'm I'm I'm happier now like I'm on
like my standards for myself like are a
little bit lower have gone down a little
bit the older I've gotten um because I
sort of accept that I
don't I don't have my brain is not as
fast as it used to be so I'm going to
have occasional let Downs so my top
level is like I think as good as it's
ever been or at least very very close to
um but like the average
level is it's just it's just too hard
when your brain is not that fast anymore
uh but but but yeah generally I um I'm
I'm always thinking well yeah I could
have always done something better
like you always miss some things but I
always feel like yeah there are
avoidable mistakes that I'm I'm still
making so this as you've gotten older
this lowering expectations is that a
recognition of the fact that being hard
on your yourself over minute details
doesn't benefit you and that you've just
had a more healthy approach yeah I think
so um and it just makes everything a bit
bit easier um also honestly like the
randomizing opening choices has
made has made things easier as um as
well uh everything just to just sort of
yeah lower the pressure a bit have you
ever consulted a mental coach or uh you
know someone who uh works with people on
mindsets to try to capture what is
happening when you are in that complete
total Flow State of laser focusness and
try to recreate that because there's a
bunch of different mind coaches that
will tell you for a bunch of different
Pursuits that what you have to do is
when you get to that state whatever that
state is recognize that you're there and
then try
to get a map of the territory and try to
will yourself back into that thing but
then there's another school of thought
that says no it just has to happen
organically and that you just have you
just need to be obsessed and focused and
take care of yourself and meditate and
just when it comes it's going to come
but it just you have to accept that it's
a gift and it's just not always going to
be there yeah I'm definitely the in the
lad Camp um
I've talked to people who have suggested
mental coaches like plenty of plenty of
times um both in in the past and and
more recently as well I've just like
always been worried
that somebody's going to mess something
up in in in my head paralysis by
analysis yeah that that that's really
that's really what it is for me so I
feel at some point I'm I'm just like
more or less content with the way things
things are that most days that I'm
playing I'm going to be fairly good on
some days I'm going to be at my very
best that other days I'm going to be
very far from from my best and it's it's
sort of yeah it's sort of the the way it
is I I I'm much definitely much more
open to doing things to prevent me from
having th those very worst days because
that those are the ones that really um
that really hurt you especially now that
we're playing a of faster tournaments uh
where there AR where there are um
Knockouts where basically like if you
have one bad day you're you're out and
it doesn't matter um like back in the
days with classical tournaments like you
could you could have a really bad day uh
but then you can always bounce back but
nowadays it's not it's not that easy do
you ever try to map out what are the
factors that lead you to hit that state
that that flow state do you ever try to
think about your day like what did I do
what did I eat how how did I sleep did I
avoid toxic people around me did I stay
offline like what did I do that allowed
me to get to that spot um yeah I mean
doing everything sort of right before
the game definitely helps like getting
um getting getting good good sleep like
reading reading a book instead of being
on on some sort of device before I go to
go to sleep um then just focusing as
little as possible on on chess before um
before the game definitely really little
as possible yeah um CU you want it to be
fresh in your mind you want it to be in
something exciting yeah I just I just
want to have like two or three ideas of
what I'm what I'm going to play and not
like I I just don't want to like use
Mental energy that I could have used on
the game before right right so
um I think one of my better tournaments
that I played um it's I used to play
every year at this um seaside resort in
in the Netherlands and it's in the
middle of winter so it's not very Resort
likee it's just um rainy and windy and
there's basically nothing there except
this big tournament that's been there
for for 80 years and it's for three
weeks every every January so for me
there's not there's not a lot to do uh
so what I would do like every day is I'd
um I'd um I'd wake up I'd go for a
walk um and then I would watch
like uh 30 to 45 minutes of um NBA
highlights from the day
before look at chess for for 15 minutes
whatever my coach has sent me of
preparation that we discussed the day
before um eat and then and then go play
and um that worked really really well
it's just keeping it as simple as
possible honestly so get inspired a
little bit little bit of energy from
watching NBA highlights right yeah just
a tiny amount of information from the
coach just like get your brain locked in
but not too much energy don't Focus too
much on it yeah I a lot of people like
they do they will spend three four hours
preparing on a game on that very day uh
and it like it can be beneficial like if
your opponent goes into specifically the
lines that you prepared and and so on
but overall I
think
um yeah having having having a fresh
mind is is so important um and I'm also
like even if i' haven't had the perfect
preparation like I'm really good at just
blocking everything out forgetting
everything that's happened and just
focusing there and then uh but it's
still not as good of course as just
being um in in in a good State of Mind
do you ever get to the point where you
feel burnout or you want to just take
days off a week off and not think about
Chess not touch a chess board or is it
just constantly playing in the
background no matter what you do but I I
really love it so why take time yeah why
it
take no no no I'm I'm fine with taking
uh breaks from from tournaments and so
on um but having like at least days
several days in a row without like
looking at a chess
game um or I mean I don't have to play
every day but not having a having a yeah
not looking at anything like not reading
some chest stuff or like yeah I mean
it's it's my favorite hobby so I I don't
um yeah I I I don't see why I would want
to do that yeah that's probably why
you're one of the best of all time if
not the best I mean that's a beautiful
approach right if you can find a thing
that you love so much that even though
you do it all the time and you've done
it since you were a child you're still
obsessing and loving it yeah I I I do
have those moments where I just I just
take a breath and I'm and think about
how lucky that I am and there are just
moments where I just sort of I wouldn't
say ReDiscover my love for the game but
where I just think like I'm obsessed
with this game and I'm
completely uh fine with that well well
that's a beautiful way to live your life
if people can find a thing like that in
their life that really is the key to an
enjoyable life if the thing that you do
all the time you're obsessed with now we
talk about it all the time at our Comedy
Club we're we're all in the green room
we're like we are so lucky that this is
actually what we do for a job and pretty
much everybody who's good at it is
obsessed with it and they think about it
all the time it's kind of the only way
but I need time off sometimes because I
think that's different it's always
different ideas and different things
you're working on sometimes you need
time just to refresh your perspective
but with a game like chess I guess you
don't really need time off no I think
again it's it's different from from for
different people but I don't know I I
don't feel I don't feel like it it it
takes away energy it just gives me joy
and and energy when when I when I do
that like I will just on on a certain
day I will just log into chess.com and
and observe random people playing that
is something I can do and be very happy
about it um yeah it's just the way I
well you're just very fortunate you
found a thing that you really locked
into that's uh that that perspective is
very important for people to recognize
like the perspective of gratitude and of
of appreciation that you're so fortunate
to have found something people go their
whole lives and never find a thing that
they're truly absolutely passionate
about and for a guy like you I mean it's
it's a shiny example for people I think
I think that's one of the things that I
enjoy the most about super high
performers is that they provide an
insane amount of inspiration to other
people when someone sees you play chess
at the highest level or sees you know
Michael Jordan play basketball or
whatever it is you get this feeling of
what human beings can do and it elevates
your own expectations of yourself and of
people around you yeah I I think um I
I've thought about it many times like
what am I actually like doing with my
life that's that's useful to other
people and it always comes comes back to
to that every time that I hear that
people um people are inspired by by what
I do maybe it helped them through like
um a difficult time to watch to watch my
games and to get into ReDiscover or find
the the love for the game that's really
um that's really nice and again in the
process I'm just doing doing what I what
I love right and that's that's really
what people want to want to see from me
is just competing and and doing well at
CH so that's that's also what I'm um
giving as as often as um possible well
that's what people want out of life is
something that they love that they do
that they're very good at and they get
recognized for for it and when a a
person like you does it and does it
publicly and it's inspiring it's a great
gift for other people I mean it truly is
who's been um like are there particular
players that you really enjoy watching
play and a particular styles that you
enjoy uh I think my favorite probably
player of all time is is sort of the
young Kasparov be
before before he
became world champion the thing is like
what I find fascinating about that is
that he played with a style um that was
so unique and so
Dynamic um
that that I know that I could never
replicate it it's just not the way that
I I play um so that's something I I
admire a lot usually I'm whatever I'm
into like be it soccer or golf for
basketball or whatever like I admire
like what people do not necessarily like
it's about the people themselves um so
that's the way it has been for me in in
in chess as well um that I try to like
learn from from people's games and and
what they what they do and when I talk
to them um and I've been very fortunate
about about that being able to study
with um with Gary back in the day uh and
uh Anand who was the world champion for
me um because it's it's only then when
like when you when you study like you
talk to them like you understand like
how good they really are and how much
they they understand um for instance
with Anna I had I had a training session
um in 2008 where we had both played a
tournament where um I'd done reasonably
well and he had sort of towards the end
he had mailed it in but he was preparing
for the classical World Championship so
we I I think I had two day days off and
he was living outside Madrid and so I
went to Madrid for a couple of days
because the other tournament was in the
north of Spain then I I went to his
house and as soon as like that training
camp started it's like something just
switched with him and he was he was just
so focused we played a bunch of training
games and from being this guy who seemed
completely disinterested in this other
tournament all of a sudden like he was
crushing me like he had a massive plus
score in our games and it felt like
everything we analyzed he was just he
just had a much deeper understanding of
the game it seemed like he was faster
tactically and everything and it made me
like appreciate like how good uh how
good he actually um actually was yeah
when you were playing someone like that
and you're getting your ass kicked um
does this inspire you an enact change in
your game or does it does it not change
your game you just do the same game but
more Focus yeah I think I think it's
more of more of the latter um it was
just a reality check for me because I
thought at that point that I
was um I was ranked I think third in the
world I'd very briefly been ranked
number one um already at that point like
for for a week and I thought before that
I thought I was maybe one of the best
two three players in the world and it
made me realize that I wasn't and that
maybe I was able to have better results
than my actual level because of because
of Youth energy and and optimism right
and that made me just yeah it just made
me realize that I have a lot lot to
learn and that I should be I should be
patient and not expect everything to to
sort of um to sort of come that fast um
because at that point I'd had a year of
more or less constant rise I was yeah
it's just
winning uh winning tournaments every
time I would lose a game I was just
believe that I could strike back
immediately
and um I I and I like I realized now
that I was just I was delusional I
thought I was a lot better than than
what I was and that was probably why I
was having so such good results cuz
you're so confident because I was so
confident uh but having like a little
bit of a reality check I think helped me
later to actually um understand U the
game a bit better but I still I I've
still taken away that I think in in
chess like the optimal State when you're
playing a game is some somewhere between
optimistic and delusionally
optimistic because if you're realistic
you're just never going to um uh to be
opportunistic enough to to sort of
exploit your opponent's mistakes it's I
think another factor is the way you
analyze things that you were able to say
I was a little
delusional and even though I'm doing
very well I got to trust in this process
of growth and development and that it is
a very very long process yeah exactly
and like very soon after that I started
working with uh with gar Kasparov as
well and that made me realize that I
know even less um and uh what can a guy
like Gary Kasparov tell you that makes
you know that you know even
less back then um it was really like my
style has become a bit more Dynamic over
time but back then I like I really
really lacked understanding of more
Dynamic positions in in chat like you
can have um you can have like more
static or more Dynamic Pawn structures
like if there are a lot of uh possible
Pawn braks for for both sides and both
kings are under attack then it's sort of
more um more Dynamic and tactical or it
could be more a more about gaining some
minute positional advantages and that's
sort of what I was excelling at the lad
and working with him um it just improved
sort of the the more Dynamic part of my
game a lot and that helped me very much
um short term uh and also also it's
helped me ladder because it it it
improved my understanding of the game My
Strength main strength is still more in
the more static
structures um
but that works like made me so much more
um more versatile and I still definitely
um profit from that what what is a coach
for you today like what what benefit is
a coach today uh a couple of things um
the main benefit that I have from my
chess coach is um opening work that's
like the the low hanging fruit that's
that's really what you know you can um
you can get the most out of on on from
from game to game um a couple of other
things like my my coach is is also um an
old friend of mine um he's Danish so we
can communicate in the same language uh
and he's also just as obsessed with golf
as as I am so that that every every time
like we have like a chess training camp
there's always also a lot of uh lot of
golf being played so um
um yeah those are a few things but chess
wise it's it's mainly about the the the
opening work and so it's essentially
he's obviously very good at chess as
well but it's essentially bouncing
things off of each other and going over
positions yeah and then he's very good
at using chess engines to um you know to
get slightly different um different
results than than maybe other others do
do you occasionally or do you at all and
analyze other people's games and break
them down
together not not really um when it comes
to analyzing other games like it's it's
excuse me it's more useful for me to to
look at what the engine is is uh is
saying so like now because the engines
are just smarter than yeah they are and
I'm I'm good enough that I can interpret
what the engine is is saying to like
understand why a certain thing a certain
thing happen happen so so it's still
interesting to analyze together as as
humans but we always want to double
check what we're what we're saying with
um with the
engines isn't it fascinating that that's
that's a gigantic Factor now ever since
deep blue right yeah so the thing about
I I know like I don't know if you if you
talk to Gary but he has this whole thing
with um with deep I I I'm not sure if
deep blue was actually uh better than
than Gary but um it yeah it started it
started the the downfall of of us humans
when it when it comes to chess and it's
now been a long time where we just
accepted that our computer overlords are
are just a lot better and there are
serious benefits um for for improving
players for for kids like the engines
help people improve a lot faster so
that's that's a great thing uh
additionally people watching Test games
like one problem is that you cannot
easily tell like it's not like one guy
is being punched and the other guy is um
is punching like it takes some skill to
uh to see what's going on but with the
help of the engines like you could
actually have a real time score all the
time because it tells you who is who is
winning and who who is not so be it
becomes a lot easier to um um to to to
follow as well because honestly like
most people when they consume Sports
they're mostly interested about who is
going to win and who is going to lose so
now at least you can you can have that
factor in chest that you can you can you
can see that and um um there it's it's
very interesting for me to read what
people were writing about computer chess
um 30 not not 30 but like 50 60 years
ago and so when there was an actual
discussion whether computers could ever
be a master at chess and now it's um um
it's very much settled of course well
they have that same discussion about go
right well go is much much more
complicated than than than chess so um
but I I don't know what has happened
since Alpha go um if if like the best
Masters are a little still a little bit
better or where the state is at I think
go is better than everybody now the the
computer is but I think a new factor is
that the computer has devised creative
moves that were never used before that
have now been implemented they're part
of like General strategy which I think
they thought was very
shocking so see see you find anything is
like kind of bluffing moves or I do not
know because I don't understand go I was
just reading an article about the
extraordinary leaps that AI has taken
and that one of the more shocking things
was was that it was able to to beat the
best players at go which they did they
thought was like a long time
coming yeah um I mean I I did watch I
watched the movie Alpha go and I mean
how long ago was that that's like five
no maybe like six seven years ago see in
AI time that's like Stone Ages which is
so crazy and I think like a year or two
later there was Alpha zero in chess um
so chess engines they were always like
kind of built by humans and instructed
by humans Alpha zero came along
and uh which is a neural network that
just you know learned chess on it on its
own and it
became more or less as good or
maybe slightly slightly worse than the
best um traditional chess engines what's
interesting is that the neural networks
played chess lot a lot more like
humans um they were much less concerned
about material factors they were more uh
about like positional play and long-term
thinking and so on uh because it was not
based on brute force in the way that um
um that traditional engines would and
you would see funny like they have
computer tournaments as well with with
with the best engine in the world and
you would you will still see like um
Leela zero that's sort of the clone of
alpha zero because they discont continue
the alpha zero project after a while um
it will make like Elementary tactical
blunders almost um that's crazy because
it I don't know it doesn't have it just
things about chest differently than
traditional engines but it will also
like do things that just
confounds uh the very best chess engines
in the world still so um that that's
very interesting to to see and like all
the
best coaches and and players now now
when when you work with chess computers
like you always have both like a neural
net and a traditional chess engine
running as well as some others who are
now like hybrid who are who have uh who
have a little bit of both um it's just
fascinating that it would make
blunders yeah well I don't know if it's
something about its it's um it's it's
search I I really I really don't I
really don't know but it would also make
some fascinating decisions like uh when
you promote a pawn like you usually
promote to a queen um because that's
almost always the best unless you
sometimes want to Pro promote Knight
specifically to uh to give a check or
sometimes you know to avoid state but
that's that's less frequent but
then what um Leela and Alpha zero would
sometimes do is that they would promote
to a different piece because um if it's
a piece that's anyway going to be
captured just to give your opponent like
a slight chance of making a mistake by
making another move oh uh which is
something like human would never ever do
uh but it's like it's really funny a
little bit of a parallel to what's going
on in go I think with this gamesmanship
that
is going on with um with um the new
neural Nets so that's crazy that it
would just trick you yeah it would would
try and trick it like it probably
wouldn't trick a human because a human
would be
like that's weird okay I'll just take it
whatever but another engine oh okay uh
well I have another alternative that
seems wow equivalent more or less maybe
I'll go for maybe I'll go for that um
wow it's it's it's very strange so what
are the best programs that people play
on um there are a few uh there's one
that was originally developed by neegan
called stockfish that's still still
considered um the best so I think like I
think the best now is stockfish like
stock hybrid that's part neural and part
traditional engine and then I think do
you have to be connected online to use
that um yeah I mean most people use
either
um most people use remote engines like
some kind of cloud service to have as
much computing power as possible so the
kind of computing power that's on your
phone like can you beat your phone at
the highest level no no chance is that
crazy no chance that's so crazy cuz deep
blue wasn't it like as big as a room
wasn't deep blue was a wasn't like a a
stack of computers right but I'm sure
it's still less powerful than your the
computer on your phone is today right
um no no I have no chance against
against um against my phone there there
was that's so crazy there there was
actually one time where I played uh
corporate siml and there was this guy
who said um I built a chess program in
in my university
class can I let that play against you
again instead of myself and I was like
yeah sure why not and I actually like
beat it fairly handily uh because I
played some kind of like anti computer
chest where I just close up the position
as much as possible and just let it has
have as few possibilities as possible to
to out out calculate me so that it's a
purely strategical game that doesn't
work against very good engines but it
can work against um against weaker ones
but now um humans like we don't have any
there there was a grandmas who played a
match recently against Leela which is
like the best
neural network engine now uh they were
playing classical chess and he started
with a knight
more and they played a 10 10 game match
and he won five and a half to four and a
half wow
which is crazy like it's a nightm like
that's it should not be possible for any
like if God was playing chess that
shouldn't be you shouldn't be able to
beat a Grandmaster in any game
like that so the grandmas was still able
to win I
but yeah for me uh I rarely play against
engines at all
because they just make me feel so stupid
and and useless so I think about it more
as an as a tool
um more than more than U than anything
else and often like when you play
against them the moves that they make
they are not necessarily relevant as to
what a human would do in that in that
situation because we just think we just
think differently do ever try to think
like the computer um yeah well
specifically the neural Nets have
improved our understanding of the game
immensely and the azero paper came out
very late
2018 and actually I played a world
championship match late 2018 as well
against um an American iano Carana that
was the best match I think that I've
ever played we played um 12 draws
actually and then I won in a tie break
but like the games were super high
quality and and he was he was very
evenly matched and then he was actually
using Leela the alpha zero clone which
we didn't have access to like we didn't
even know that was the thing but the
thing is like after Alpha zero came out
in 201 late 2018 there was a period half
a year maybe early 2019 where you could
very clearly see which players have been
using these new neural network networks
or knew how to use them and which
players didn't and my coach he got into
it very quickly and we got an advantage
of basically everybody but that but that
guy who had been using it during the
match and it just made us understand the
game a lot better uh there were as I
said like a couple of things about
long-term King safety pushing pawns on
the side of the board was maybe the
biggest takeaway that
often you would push
pawns and not as an attacking tool which
used to be the way that you would push a
pawn like trying trying to break open
your open your king what you would do is
that you would have a little hook on the
side of the board that you could use 20
or or 30 moves later
um to make your king uh like like to
make the opponent's king less safe then
and this is something that humans didn't
really do and I still see some people
like allowing these Pawn advances and
and I don't like I wonder if they didn't
didn't learn their lesson from from
2019 uh but it was very clear to see um
at a certain time before everybody sort
of caught up with a new information and
that's also when I had maybe my best
stretch of Chess ever because I just
understood these new things um better
better than others it's almost
counterintuitive that you wouldn't want
to play the computer because the
computer makes you look stupid because
the idea in my mind would be like well
you should play the best thing that you
could possibly play and if that's a
computer great if that's another human
being then play the human being but I
would imagine that playing something
that makes you feel stupid would at the
very least teach you something about the
game yeah it it does but at the same
time like you know that these are
usually things that humans cannot
replicate and to be fair like the kids
these days a lot of them play like a
more concrete brand of of Chess that um
is more similar to to um to engines than
um than we have seen in the past because
they've had so much exposure to it yeah
um like they're they're less dogmatic
more Concrete in their their thinking
but then I know that there are usually
other things that are are lacking so I
could I could sort of steer the game
there as well so I don't know
um I haven't I I I haven't found it
particularly useful but but maybe I'm
just yeah I don't want to is it partly
because you just don't want to lose yeah
of
course and it's also because as you said
like chess is a very lonely game like
when you lose it's because you're worse
than your opponent and imagine losing to
somebody who you know is like completely
stupid which which like traditional
chess computers are they're stupid they
just have much more computing power than
you do so losing over and over again to
something that's so stupid like that's
not a good feeling could you help
explain to me what are the factors like
how can it what is it doing that you
can't do in terms of calculating
positions and moves and
strategies well first of all it's
infinitely
faster um so there will there will be
certain possibilities that I will rule
out because of my intuition but it is
able to calculate in a very short time
that it's it's it's possible it will
never
make blunders like simple tactical
mistakes the neural networks sometimes
do but traditionals engines traditional
engines
don't um
and like I
can I can keep like most of the moves
that I make will be the same as they as
they do um but they just like they don't
make any real blunders at all like they
may may make slight positional mistakes
but honestly most of the time that I
think a an engine makes a positional
mistake is because I don't understand it
well enough so it's not really a mistake
and it might look like one but it's
longterm uh yeah it's just that my
understanding is is not good enough and
that that is useful then that does help
me learn um what are the fact like what
is the difference between the approach
that the neural network takes versus a
traditional
engine like why why is one of them
approaching the game differently because
one of them is constantly
calculating uh based on sort of
what what humans have taught them
is like the value of like the value what
is the value of a pawn what's the value
of a knight and what is the value of um
you know a far Advanced Pawn and and all
of this like it calculates based on that
neural network just you teach you just
show it the rules of Chess and you know
play against your yourself a lot of
times and get better
and it's it just has a it has a
different approach like what it does is
just based on the game games that it's
that it's played against itself right so
it it's it's just it will have
completely different different ideas um
at times
like imagine like in 2019 because of
these neural networks like every
opening that have been played for
hundred hundreds of years had to be
rechecked by by coaches
because there could be a difference in
evaluation because there is this new
neural network that just thingss in a
completely different way wow so the
these neural networks could go back and
look at you know a classic game from
like
1963 and say well you know what I would
have [ __ ] that dude up because I would
have done this that and the other thing
yeah exactly and um it just I think a
lot of it was based on it just
emphasizes different factors than
traditional engines do and and that
ultimately just leads to to uh to
different uh to different results really
um
but it's um yeah it was extremely
fascinating uh for a while but now it's
just led to really more parody uh in in
the world world of Chess because yeah uh
everybody just has access to um to that
information it used to be a thing back
in the time that PE some people would
really be ahead of others not only in
2019 but also other times like they had
um more computing power better better
Cloud engines like they had started to
use different engines and so on but
now now you could prepare for World
Championship honestly and in two weeks
and you'd be completely um with like
just a
regular
um Regular like laptop that's connected
to to cloud like it's it's very
different and so much so much easier um
today that is so fascinating that it's
changed the game so much could you get a
a computer whether it is a traditional
engine or whether it's a neural network
could you get one to imitate a specific
style like uh could you get one to say I
want you to play like Gary Kasparov when
he was
younger so we actually did this back in
back in the day um um we actually
started a an app called play Magnus
where you could play against myself
against uh at different ages um and the
um the uh the style it was based on the
guy who built stockfish built this
engine as well so it was based like an
old version of that but it would have my
openings and try to emulate my style at
certain certain ages obviously it wasn't
it wasn't perfect but it was it it was
it was a start um I think it's
still difficult to build like a very
good clone because
essentially um at least with traditional
engines it's not possible maybe with AI
you can you can get there but I I still
think we fundamentally think differently
about about Chess but yeah maybe well
the interesting thing would be to take
you because there's so many games that
can be observed and put into the
calculations and then I would I would
really be fascinated to watch you play
you you know I mean like what would that
be like like you play you when you were
20 no so the thing about it is is that
you would H also what you would have to
calibrate is that um it would make
occasional like tactical blenders right
and which those right they wouldn't want
to and so what we would do what would
happen in the play minus app is that it
would make occasional blunders but those
would be like a little bit too
outrageous because it's like really hard
to emulate the kinds of mistakes a human
would make by um by by the
engines um so so so I I think that would
probably still be like the most
difficult part like the main issue in
order to to make such a thing if the
play Magnus thing was dialed in like
100% what would be do you think now
would be the scariest age to play
you does that question make sense yeah
yeah are you better now than ever before
no I I think as I think my I think my my
peak level is is close to the best
because chess level or proficiency at
anything it's about making use of the
knowledge and making it into skill right
uh and I definitely have more knowledge
now than I've ever had but I think
probably my the combin best combination
I had of knowledge and and and energy
and that translated the best into skill
was
probably um in
2019 like first half of the year when I
was when I was 28
and when I
was more more like a young Kasparov than
I'd ever been before uh very
Dynamic um well what is the difference
between you and T 19 you
today a few things uh
first it's I couldn't play the same
openings as I played then because they
have been worked out to a point where
they're
basically um yeah they're just too
analyzed and unplayable uh so that's
that's one thing
um apart from that I think I could do
like my average level would probably be
a little bit lower cuz I'm a little bit
uh I'm a little bit older and uh and my
brain is not quite as fast um but I I
could do I think most of those things
what I don't think I could do is like
the other sort of best version of me
which was 2013
2014 uh when I was
in um the best shape of of my life uh
and I was just a Relentless beast at the
board GR running down my my um opponents
in very long end games never giving them
any any rest fite whatsoever um like
purely skill-wise that was far from the
best version uh sorry knowledge wise
that was far from the best version of me
um
but I was
just um yeah was just like the average
level of my game definitely was was was
higher than because I barely I rarely
played really bad bad games at all
because I was always I was always sort
of on I had so much um so much um
willpower and energy well you're saying
you were in the best shape of your life
do you mean physically or do you mean
physically physically yeah well see
there's two factors you're talking about
like physical like Fitness and Nutrition
and exercise like that that these things
you don't really take too much into
consideration but they are obviously
played a huge factor in the most
successful period of your life uh yeah
um it did but then cuz you're only 34
it's on Old no no no that's that that's
true but I I I just I just feel it with
these these kids like their brains are
just so much faster than
mine um I I mean I've felt it for years
as well
that no I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not old
uh but I can I I can I can never be
that level of pure like computing power
but is that generally accepted with
chess that there's a certain age where
it just drops off like who has won the
World Championships at like the oldest
age no well uh back in the
days when you couldn't get information
that quickly it took people a lot longer
to um to develop and then it was
considered that the best age was like
late 30s early early
40s um obviously the drop off is not
nearly as steep as it would be in in
physical sports like that's that goes
without saying but I think the peak
years are pretty much the same um for
for most people like mid mid 20s to to
to early uh to early
30s um I think I could still I I I could
be I could still be very very close to
to my Peak if I
um focused fully
on um on yeah all the the things that
that I can that I
physicalness all of those things yeah
and yet you don't do that I don't
understand if you're so obsessed with
chess and that seems to have a primary
factor yeah that's it's it's a good
thing like I feel like I do I generally
like do the right thing things when I'm
at tournaments but then in between
I don't know I want to enjoy life as as
as
well um
so um and like I'm generally obsessed
with with with chess but I'm not always
obsessed with competing like certain
times there will be certain days certain
tournaments where I I know that I'm not
going to be at my best and I I can I can
sort of I can feel it and then I I'm not
able
to um
to to u to take it as as seriously like
I feel like I cannot I'm I'm not a
Michael Jordan type who has to like go
all out in every in in every game I I
used to but now I don't I I don't think
I have that um that in me because my
main motivation for playing chess is
that I love to play um I don't have
concrete goals of what I want to what I
want to do um things I want to achieve
like that sort of relaxed attitude that
you have does that drive other people
crazy that you're still able to beat
them that would drive me [ __ ] nuts if
I was just fully obsessed and studying
moves all day and just taking my
vitamins and drinking only purified
water and it's kind of a thing that
you're known for right like a lot of
other people are known to work all the
time and you've kind of always at least
a
reputation played the player right isn't
that what you're
yeah and also the thing is like I was
known for um um for like being fit and
all of these things but now I think
there are a lot of other players who
take these things a lot more seriously
than I than I do I think the reason why
I got that reputation is that I really
like doing a lot of a lot of um like I
did a lot of sports from I was little
and I've always like kind of done them
for for fun so I think I think that was
the that was why like you don't see a
lot of chess players playing uh playing
soccer or tennis or or whatever um not
that I'm greater than any of those
things but I was usually better than
than a lot of other a lot of other chess
players um I I yeah I guess I do
have I don't know I don't know what a
reputation I have for the others like I
don't really care yeah there's not much
much you could do about your reputation
I'm just saying like in a in a in a game
or a sport where it it's so computer
involved and analyzed and there's
Geniuses wearing suits and glasses and
things you're kind of known as a
laidback intimidating force with a
legacy do you have are there are there
special things you do kind of like more
like a poker player or anything to
intimidate your opponents ever like I've
seen you like show up late to Big
tournaments where they're like waiting
for you and stuff that's really cool
that's a mimoto Musashi move no Samurai
yeah yeah honestly like that's
um me being late
is down to a couple of things first I
hate waiting uh but also I just I'm
terrible at planning so that's why I
keep showing up L you're terrible at
planning you know how funny that is it's
literally what you do better than
anybody like my planning is always based
on everything going perfectly and like
making a Time plan based on that and if
something goes a little bit wrong then
I'm going to be late and like something
usually goes goes wrong or often enough
that it becomes becomes a thing
um like um like as you talked about in
in in chess like there's this video that
a lot of people have talked about where
I come there's there's um there's a
Blitz game right and I that's 3 minutes
and I come like 2 and a half minutes
late because I've been I've been skiing
in the mountains and there was a there
was an accident on the road that that
delayed me like half an hour like most
people would have planned for that had a
little bit of buffer but I was like ah
that was probably going to be fine
certain suddenly there's an accident and
I'm going to be late and I'm just
running into the playing Hall in my in
my sweatpants and not real even
realizing that the game has started I
just thought I was so late that I should
be uh and I saw that everybody was there
and then randomly turned out that I had
half a minute left when when I got to
the got to the board so that's kind of
more how did you play the game did you
did you like have a different approach
because you knew you only had 30 seconds
no the the thing is like in there you
have a two second increment per move so
I'm not going to lose on time
automatically I just had to play a
little bit faster but it was it was okay
but I as I said like I don't do those
things to intimidate my opponents I'm
just that would be such a mind [ __ ] guy
shows up 2 and a half minutes late and
still Stomps you yeah I don't think many
people know about the the the the skiing
delay or anything I think it was thought
of is like a this I'm I'm a badass I'm
coming in late no honestly that was um
like the world championships in chess
like they were being held in the
weirdest places so this was in in almati
Kazakhstan which um this is like really
uh during winter at least pretty
polluted not very nice city and then
just half an hour out of the city you
have basically the Ops you have
beautiful mountains that goes up to um
to 3 and a half thousand meters where it
is just fantastic and you can you can
like get um yeah from from the city it's
like an hour and you're at the top of
the mountain and having a beautiful ski
vacation uh and I just like was so
miserable being down in the city that I
thought for this day like if I'm going
to perform at all today like I need some
fresh air I like I need to get out of
here and so that's why I took the risk
and it was yeah definitely not um not to
um to play to play mind games because I
I Bobby Fisher said about Chess that I
don't believe in Psychology I believe in
good moves like I believe in like a
little bit of both but I'm more in his
school that I just um I think I'm going
to make better moves than I don't need
need um that all all those other things
did you ever have an opponent that was
doing something psychological that kind
of messed you up or threw you off like
back when I was a wrestler in high
school some guys wouldn't shower and it
would be disgusting right was there
anything like that in chest yeah that
specific thing has has happened for sure
uh I'm not sure if it's
been if it's been a conscious Choice by
my opponents I'm sure I've been guilting
guilty of it as well um
that that's true um I don't know really
I
I I think the only thing is not to bring
that up again but I I think when when I
think that my my opponent might be
cheating that's that's the only time
that I'm
really I'm really um off yeah it's just
weird that you can cheat and do it for
so long and yet still play in the best
tournaments you would think that like
like in the UFC like say if you get
caught with wordss you get a long ban
and you can't and if you get caught
again you get an even longer ban and I
think it's like a three strike thing if
you caught a third time you're out of
the sport forever yeah no it's the the
thing is that well you think harsher
penalties would discourage people oh
yeah for sure especially for for online
because there's been this thinking that
cheating over the board and over online
is like very different but the thing is
like once
people um once people are cheating
online then having these meteoric Rises
over the board as well it makes you
think hm that's a bit strange yeah um so
yeah there definitely needs to be um to
be harsher P penalties one thing that
chess.com used to do is that they they
would let people sort of confess
privately and then get their account
back but now they're moving to more
naming sh and shaming sort of sort of
thing with the um and and banning people
for longer which I think is yeah it's
it's a lot it's a lot better um but a
lot of is is a lot of it is about
incentives as well right like if you if
you think that you can get get away with
cheating
um and there are monetary incentives to
to cheat people are going to cheat as
simple as that yeah well I guess that's
just with every Pursuit there's always
going to be people that look for
shortcuts there's always going to be
someone who looks to skirt around the
difficult path no that's true but the
thing is like there's so little you need
in in chess and and the the engines are
so powerful um like if I started
cheating you would never
know the thing is like I would I I would
get like a move here and there that's
all I need or
maybe imagine I'm playing a tournament I
just find a system where I get somebody
to Signal me when there's a critical
Moment Like if a certain move if there's
a moment where a certain move is much
better than the others that's really all
I would need to to go from being the
best to being like
practically unbeatable right so it it
really is a scary situations and
situation there have been these cases
of so many cases of people who are are
acting
suspiciously and who are making
suspicious um spe having spe suspicious
results based on the data but they're
very like if you're not cheating in a
dumb way there rarely is going to be a
Smoking Gun and without that Smoking Gun
it's pretty hard to catch to catch
people how would you eliminate that
other than security would you have it so
there's no audience members at all and
have them only in a
room together so that has been that has
been done in world championships for
instance like we're basically play
we''re basically been playing like in a
glass box that where you can see um
where you can see um where like you
cannot see the audience and you cannot
hear anything so it's a glass proof
glass proof box um I kind of that's like
you kind of don't want that you want
there to be like I really like having
chess more like an Esports setting where
people can be as loud as they want it's
just you have players sit down like
boxers with headsets and but don't
headsets open up the possibility of
cheating but then like the headsets
would be all provided by the organizers
so some sort of and you'd have to have
like both we have had that in tournament
like tournaments that you have to have
white noise and some kind of sound from
like Spotify or what if you want to
listen to classical music or or whatever
you can do that
yeah yeah so you can listen to wuang
Clan while you play chess yeah I mean
honestly honestly playing Blitz chess
help listening to music usually helps me
because like doing tasks that are more
intuition
based um then that helps with the flow
with longer
games um You probably don't want that
disturbance but I've definitely played
some of my best Blitz chest just um um
yeah listening listening to music
sitting there bopping um um yeah I think
some wild Norwegian
music R Ramstein or something that's
actually German but uh they have some
good they have some good
songs no I think my best my just my best
chess has probably been Norwegian rap
Norwegian rap really what's a good new
regian rap band that you could or rap
group that you could recommend uh
there's a guy called um Mr pimp lotion
and oral be Mr pimp lotion and oral be
they're kind of it's like a little bit
ironic but they're like doing like
American like West Coast rap in in
Norwegian oh that sounds
badass this is a bit of a difference
one but I I actually I actually did a
song with Mr pimp lotion I actually did
a song with those guys why what a great
name Mr pimp lotion
it's incredible
yeah there's
um yeah the thing about the the what
happened was that they did a show and
they have this this thing called SP
which is like um a moisturizer mostly
used for for animals but like this Mr
pan like he's obsessed with that one and
somebody apparently stole the that from
backstage um at at their concert and so
they they didn't know who it was but
they eventually found out and they made
a song about it and so they had a bunch
of people like send in their
verses
uh incredible the difference between
America and Norway what the rappers are
rapping about there's gang Wars and
shootings and in Norway somebody's like
who stole my
lotion
yeah there there actually was a uh there
actually was a a popular song um like
about 20 years
ago that referenced specifically that in
Norwegian that there was nothing to rap
about because nothing bad ever
happens this what he's saying in don't
make pull out the gun it's best that
someone speak out who this be
all who stole my lotion
yeah basically there's a bunch of verses
like people accusing each other and then
I randomly come in at the very
end um and solve the mystery oh was it
you oh it wasn't me um I I was I was not
at that particular show but um yeah I
think I I I I think like the best online
chess that I've ever played was probably
listening listening to their um to their
music wow do you mix it up do you ever
listen to like lead Zeppelin or no I I I
listen to a lot of lot of older older
stuff um as
well um so yeah I'm like I have no idea
what's on the chart these days um in
general but I find out through Tony yeah
I do I find out through the young guys
at the club I'm like what are you
listening to what is this and I'll you
know do Shazam on it and put it on my
Spotify playlist that sometimes happens
to me as well maybe like once a year or
something yeah otherwise it's um I
remember like I asked my sister uh
probably like 10 years ago like I saw
playlist and I like do you have anything
from before 2000 and like yeah of course
Britney SPS Baby One More Time
999 so I'm kind of the opposite of that
well that's awesome well listen man it's
been awesome having you in here I really
appreciate you doing this and uh tell
everybody when the Netflix uh show is
out uh I don't know but it's it's in
within a few months for sure uh Jamie do
you know I didn't say didn't say when
it's coming out well we will put it up
on the Instagram when it's out and uh
it's been awesome talking to you man I
really appreciate it thank you thanks
for coming in all right Tony fun times
fun time all right goodbye everybody
[Music]