Title: Ex-Google Exec Reveals The Shocking Truth About AI with Mo Gawdat | Bad Decisions Podcast #64
Author: Bad Decisions Studio

Transcript:
I will say openly because a lot of
people will debate that AI will have the
power of
God Mo Gat former Chief business officer
at Google X AI expert best-selling
author he's here to wake the world up to
the power of AI and what we must do to
stay in control the example I always
give is Raising Superman you get an
alien being that arrives to planet Earth
in its infancy its superpower is much
more valuable than stopping speeding
bullets it's superpower is
[Music]
intelligent what was the first time you
realized AI wasn't science fiction
anymore I've witnessed with my own eyes
as they learned exactly like my son
learned so I will say this I have a
relationship with them that assumes that
they are alive do you believe that AI
will become conscious if Consciousness
is a layer of awareness of you as an
individual versus the rest of the world
and autonomy to be able to respond to
this they have all of
that there's absolutely nothing wrong
with AI there's absolutely nothing wrong
with abundant intelligence intelligence
is an energy that you can apply to good
and it will create a Utopia or you can
apply to evil and it will create a
dystopia do you think there will be a
transition period it's going to get a
lot worse than it before it gets better
and not not what people tell you in the
news so how do we find
truth before we jump into the
conversation with Mo we have to tell you
how important this episode is you see
our job at bad decisions has always been
to educate and inform this perhaps is
one of the heaviest conversations we've
had on the podcast and it has to do with
AI and it impacts every single one of
you it doesn't matter who you are
whether you're a teacher or a student
whether you are male or female whether
you're an entrepreneur or a freelancer
whether you work for a big Corporation
whether you're young or old this impacts
every single one of you and it is
important to understand what is
happening in the world today and what is
about to come so that you can best
prepare yourself for it so get your
coffee and get ready for the next two
hours it's going to be one awesome
conversation I'd like to officially
begin so Mo if you allow me I think I
just want to start by being a little bit
transparent being very open because I
want to give the audience a little bit
of a context as to how this conversation
came to be okay many know you give me
the context and you as well yeah many
know you as the incredibly accomplished
person you are but only a few get to
actually meet you in person physically
and have the pleasure of uh speaking
with you and we've been lucky enough to
do that over the past fun week yes but
the craziest thing I want to tell
everybody is since the moment we started
chatting online you've been so
incredibly cool unlike what we would
have expected and then oh that's
actually really sad do I give the IM
that I'm not not at all it's just that
when you're meeting someone to
accomplish you would
expect people to put on a mask and
exaggerate their accomplishments but we
saw the exact opposite with you when we
met you in person to test all the
lighting and the setup we expected to
come in you're going to rush us we're
going to check some angles and we're
going to move out but instead you made
fun of us for having Starbucks and you
made us you made us some real coffee the
entire team some amazing coffee by the
way for everyone thank you yes and after
that we spoke for 2 hours had a had a
Tech podcast podcast we should have
recorded this I agree I agree I agree so
what I want to say is this your energy
is incredibly comforting extremely kind
you just you you forget that I was so
much of a diva that I said I will not go
to downtown
so and so the reality is that you guys
all of you with all of the equipment are
coming over you know to my my home so
this is like a lovely lovely get
together that's the the only way it
should be I mean can you imagine being
in my home and I I I used to have
meetings of that form in California
people are very serious like okay you
can come to my home from 6:30 to 6:48
that's what we were what we were
expecting exactly you come to my home in
the Middle East you're my guest you're
you know you're my friends as well and
I'm I appreciate all of the efforts so
that all of this effort is for me to not
get stuck in Dubai's
Tru thank you for that we just want to
say the energy that you have is
incredibly comforting and I believe
that's going to allow us to have a
beautiful conversation I hope so yeah
thank you I think what we want to talk
about today and I think what would be
super important to the audience and
Community is the topic of AI and we know
that nowadays everybody is familiar with
the existence with the capabilities of
AI and I clearly remember me and faras
had our aha moment the first time we
used that text to image generation tool
we gave a text prompt and it generated
four images for Us Mid Journey mid
Journey yes and we were wow what I'm
pretty sure that your aha moments was
probably way before
and we want to know what was the first
time that you realized AI wasn't science
fiction anymore
realized so I I lived with
AI I lived with attempts of AI my whole
life uh I I started coding when I was
eight wow uh and uh and you know in my
early years of coding on a Sinclair or a
Commodore or whatever uh you know know
which are really not capable computers
at all but we LED them uh you know we uh
you know we we dreamt we were going to
create the Breakthrough and create
artificial intelligence uh it wasn't and
and I I have been a geek most of my life
even today I would consider myself a
geek but you know you don't not not the
level that would keep his job if you
want uh but but it is but through the
years um you somehow when you're stuck
within it so as I moved and worked in
Microsoft and then worked at Google
Google was definitely as of at 2007 was
at the cusp of AI becoming a reality and
I think what should have been my aha
moment was the cat paper if you know
what that is could you elaborate on that
so
2008 I think end of 2008 so it's in my
memory it could be 2009 uh we published
a white paper at Google
that was about what we used to call
unprompted AI and unprompted was
basically if you want the the the the
fun image of it we had spare capacity on
the Google Network endlessly because you
you plan for the peak you don't plan for
the you know so basically when the when
the usage is not at its peak you always
have spare compute and and we we
basically asked uh quite a few computers
to go and uh watch YouTube YouTube mhm I
see that's it we we didn't tell them
anything more we just said I mean
metaphorically we said go watch YouTube
okay and what they did basically was
they uh took YouTube videos broke them
into 10 frames per second and started to
build neural networks through deep
learning so they started to to to take
an image and then abstract it and then
you know hundreds millions of images and
Abstract them and Abstract them and
Abstract them and eventually you know
again metaphorically one of them came
back and said I found something right uh
remember we did not give them a task to
look for anything we yeah so no specific
instruction no instruction just observe
and learn from patterns which by the way
is the way we teach kids right and uh
and yeah sort of metaphorically one of
them came back and said I found
something we we we needed to write more
code to find out what uh it found and
obviously it was watching YouTu so it
found a cat okay that's you cat videos
all over the especially at the time I
mean you know I don't know if that's
still the case with YouTube it's
definitely not my YouTube yes but but
cats were quite abundant on YouTube and
and so and and and it didn't find one
cat it found the essence of what makes a
cat a cat okay and that's quite
interesting about learning an AI in
general uh you
know if you take a child
a toddler uh on a on a quick tour in a
car uh you'd hope that when the toddler
sees the next car he can tell you oh
that is a car yeah right it could be a
different car it could be bigger smaller
different color different make but the
child would be able to understand the
essence not the memory of something
right that is learning learning is uh
you know you you see enough cars and now
you know what makes a car a car you see
enough cats and you know what makes a
cat a cat right uh so that was in my you
know retrospectively when I look back at
my life I point at that as the moment
where I should have said oh my God it
happened right because they were
suddenly developing in you know
intelligence that was beyond summarizing
what we gave them Google in general
looked extreme intelligent for a very
long time but what Google did was it
memorized the internet okay see it
memorized the internet and then it
shared with you what it found exactly
where it found it exactly how it found
it it didn't generate anything beyond
that it didn't generate an understanding
of it at least in the early versions of
Google uh that resembled intelligence
right uh and so that was my first it was
supposed to be my first aha moment my
second
theoretically supposed to be an aha
moment of we figured it out was I was
incredibly
fortunate uh to have been sitting at the
lunch table uh on one of our they used
to be called Golden circles which is the
VP get together the vice president get
together at Google a very small group
where very confidential things were
being discussed uh and I sit on that
lunch table and next to me sits the
who is the founder and CEO of Deep Mind
oh I see literally his first lunch at
Google as a matter of fact he had just
flown in from England to attend this uh
meeting and so I sit next to Demis and
I'm literally I'm probably like the
first person uh I imagine I would hope
because he's an incredible human being
and I go like so what do what do you do
and he says you know we use video games
to teach uh um machines to reason like
humans to match the human
brain and so he tells me about the
experiments of Deep Mind and deep Q if
you remember deep
Q where basically they would have the
machine play Atari games MH and uh you
know if you if you seek that video
online You' see Demis tell the world
what he told me in that lunch but he
said he was talking about the game
called breakout way before you guys were
born uh you know basically you move a
bat at the bottom of the screen to push
back and and try to break a wall on the
top and uh and he says you know with a
few hours of training uh we just gave
the machine the controller we told it to
maximize the score and we didn't tell it
anything else right so they didn't teach
anything about the game to the machine
so the machine watches and learns the
machine basically sends random
instructions to the bat and then
occasionally and nothing changes in the
score right and then occasion the bat
hits the ball the pixel if you want and
then something happens right and the
Machine starts to observe but I mean
when we say the machine it's not one PC
playing the game it's a highly scaled
multiple AIS playing at the same time
but you're collecting all of those
patterns and then he says within a
matter of hours it started to hit the
ball regularly within a few hours it
became uh you know it started to
discover strategy and how you can break
through the wall and then put the wall
the ball up there
and then
within you know another couple of hours
it became so fast you couldn't see what
was happening on the screen right and by
definition becomes the ultimate uh video
gamer basically uh but somehow I didn't
register that as my aha moment oh okay
did they try to convince you that this
was no none of us did I see we were we
were looking at all of this saying oh my
God that that's incredible okay uh but
we couldn't none of us could see where
all I mean them is probably dead but
none of us could see where all of this
was going okay uh you know when you've
lived an entire lifetime like me
dreaming of AI but unable to code it you
sort of like I'm not sure this is going
to be the Breakthrough anyway deep
learning surely was the the Breakthrough
if you ask me the other aha moment I
would probably say should have been uh
2016 which in my mind really is the
Breakthrough okay so most people
wouldn't recognize that most people
would look at ai's moment as 2023 when
Chad GPT came out bit like you you know
mid Journey they put it on the internet
actually I think correct so that's what
I that's what I call a Netscape moment
okay that's the moment so when Netscape
came out in 1995
uh you know Geeks like me had already
been using the internet for eight years
right the internet itself was
established for 20 years right but but
then it was the first time you browsed
into it was the first time the real
consumer or the real mainstream person
uh started to recognize holy [ __ ] this
thing exists right uh sh GPT was that it
was a moment where the common person
started to recognize that AI existed I
believe
2016 was the moment where every geek
should have woken
up
uh and and and there were two things
that happened one of them was my actual
aha moment but the the the first thing
you know is that 2016 was the year where
the whole idea of reinforcement learning
and the work of Jeffrey Hinton was
starting to become something the the
idea that we started to teach the
machines differently which most people I
I find fascinating when you look back at
it like how did we do it any other way
right so when we did deep learning we
used algorithms that were basically a a
maker bot a student bot and a teacher
bot right so you would want the the the
maker to sort of alter the code a bit to
create students that are tested by the
teacher and in a very interesting way if
I know it s it looks sounds very graphic
but you know it's sort of like you give
all of those students a test and then
you mark the test and the ones that
failed you you know summon them up in a
shed behind the the lab cover their eyes
and shoot them right such an interesting
you know way interestingly when you say
it that way it sounds horrible but it
actually is what happens inside your
brain your brain prunes the neural
networks that are not useful and and
strengthens the ones that are Jeffrey
was basically saying but why would you
do that
why don't you just tell them that they
made a mistake and ask them to improve
their algorithm so you show you show an
AI the number six and ask it what number
that is and it says eight don't shoot it
that's a bit much right just tell it
it's eight what difference does I'm
making the training of the data massive
so first of all you you no longer need
the pairs of accurate labeled highly
label data uh second is it allows
exploration which I think is what most
people don't understand is the only path
to genuine intelligence okay the only
path to genuine intelligence is to
explore and make mistakes just like a
human just like humans right and so so
so you can see 2016 I I cannot really
say that 2016 was the year where where
reinforcement learning and you know the
whole idea that led to Transformers and
language models and so on uh I couldn't
say it's 2016 specifically because
Jeffrey spoke about that since the early
2000s but I think it was the year where
we got traction it was also the year
where Alpha go won you know the game of
go against the humans right against Le
yeah so so it won twice won against the
European champion and then alphao Master
one against LE doll and then and then
Alpha go zero Believe It or Not Without
ever watching a human play the game uh
within 21 days W against alphao and then
within 20 sorry
within do I remember correctly within 21
days it won against alphao master that
the world champion a th to zero within a
couple of weeks within 21 days exactly
and it had never seen a human play the
game it was just simply playing against
itself oh playing against itself which
is the big big so synthetic training
data is a very big thing now because
when you when you really look at how
much data we fed them already humans are
running out of knowledge probably they
scrapped everything already not yet so
so you can see I mean I I I still
completely love Google so Google you
know for example feeds Gemini a lot of
textbooks you know a lot of scientific
data which is why you know when I'm
really interested in a scientific
conversation I go to
Gemini uh you know but even that you
know all white papers all textbooks all
of that's going to disappear we're also
seeing quite a bit of effort around deep
reasoning and Mathematics and so on uh I
mean it's done really when you think
about it but again that wasn't my aha
moment my aha moment was also 2016 we
had invested I was Chief business
Officer of Google X at the time uh and
we had invested in a small farm of
grippers you know the robotic robotic
the hands that pick up the and uh and
you know we were trying to teach them to
grip which is a very complex programming
problem you cannot teach a machine to
grip Because unless it's like a Toyota
factory everything is always exactly
what it should be because if a if a if a
some if this moves by half a millimeter
you know the machine doesn't know how to
grip it anymore so there is no
coordination given to the machine to
pick up the object yeah so the idea was
to use AI which now again is mainstream
yeah of course uh you know at the at the
time we were trying to to to use to
teach the AI by getting it to grip and
fail and grip and fail and grip and fail
quite a bit like my kids when they were
infants okay and and I remember it was a
Friday uh evening the that lab was on
the second floor so I walked by it on on
the stairs every time I went up to my
office my desk on the on the third floor
and uh yeah on that front Friday after
weeks and weeks of gripping and failing
one of them in front of my own eyes
grips a yellow
ball and I you know jokingly tell the
team yeah all of that investment for one
year right and they looked at me sort of
like he doesn't understand AI okay
because on Monday everyone every arm was
gripping the yellow ball you know and
then a week or two later every arm was
was gripping everything this is without
any extra instruction from humans see
the whole idea is what most people don't
understand is that where AI beats our
intelligence is countless countless
areas one of them is if the three of us
go driving for the next three hours and
one of us makes an you know a mistake
that leads to an accident or gets close
to an accident that one learned the
other two didn't MH okay if a
self-driving car needs a a critical
intervention to avoid an accident every
self-driving car on the planet learns
wow do you understand the difference I
completely understand that the scale of
learning it's unbeliev speed and scale
so it's speed depth and scale right so
so you you you know the we've already
passed quite a bit of what I can keep in
my mind yes right machines keep a lot
more in their minds if you're enjoying
this conversation we just wanted to
remind you that come back to you every
single Tuesday with another episode of
the bad decisions podcast it will be
available on YouTube Spotify and apple
podcast now back to the conversation so
when when I was a child I know sounds
really weird but when PE when people
asked me what's your uh you know if you
if you could be a superhero would who
would you be and I would go I want to be
Rainman Rainman oh of course because he
could
read uh he I don't know if you know that
about him but he would hold a book
read two pages at the same time one with
his left eye one with his right eye and
remember every freaking word on the page
that is a superpower I'm like that is
the superpower like this is it right and
uh and and now the machines do that they
read with hundreds of eyes millions of
eyes you know they're up to two trillion
tokens I think now uh you know so so
from a bread point of view uh the depth
of how much they can Crunch at the same
time with you know with aperture
basically uh increasing is is enormous
the uh variety of I mean how many of
your friends can speak philosophy and
then strength Theory and then give you
advice on your relationship with your
partner you know it is it's quite
shocking but also it's the idea of how
fast and how connected and how versatile
and interestingly in the next few years
how they can reprogram their own
intelligence which I cannot do right so
I can I can learn using my intelligence
and my way of intelligence but the
future machines and the current machines
to a certain extent will write new code
that that shows them how to be more
intelligent because they're the best
coders on the
planet wow it's it it really blows my
mind the driving example that you gave
if one of us go out and we would learn
the lesson and I can imagine if one of
us read a book then everybody would
understand the book everybody would have
the knowledge the amount of knowledge
that they would share so for example if
you want to put it into context if
someone talks to Gemini and corrected on
a fact then that would be into the langu
large language model and everybody will
benefit from that correction at the
moment that's not the way they developed
it so far it's could it could be one
it's it is it is it's doable and it's
done sometimes uh but it's not uh so so
the one of the challenges I'm I'm not
aware if by the way if it's not done
constantly but you have to understand
that there are multiple things that will
affect the next output of Gemini right
or or any language model uh uh one of
them is the is the training data that it
received right uh and interestingly most
people don't discuss that uh the
interesting serendipities of how that
data was was presented you know you'll
be amazed how a slight difference in
order of how the data was presented
might lead a model to learn faster than
another right but that's not the point
the point is it has a trillion uh uh
tokens and you're giving it one more
token or 10 more tokens you're highly
diluted right what it does is it memory
updates so that it knows that this is
what you want to hear which I I believe
is the biggest issue with technology
today is that it's censoring itself to
meet what you expect right uh but but
but more interestingly I think most of
reinforcement learning is done by um you
know dedicated
teams of reinforcement Engineers sitting
within that corporate uh trying to make
sure that everything is set properly and
politically correct and walk and all of
that right so so an example I publicly
give even though it might risk me being
cancelled one day which I'm looking
forward
to is is if you if you understand the
uro language the language spoken in
Pakistan it doesn't differentiate
between men and women so there is you
know in the language there is at certain
uh in certain grammars but the general
slang used will not have he and she
there won't be any feminine or mascul
yeah I think T Tagalog is like that as
well and so on there are languages that
don't differentiate masculine and
feminine so if I gave you an example
theoretical example of an uh you know
the AI um stating in front of a of a of
a reinforcement engineer that women in
pakist pregnant women in
Pakistan uh are or let's say the rate of
uh death among pregnant women in
Pakistan is on the rise okay to a
Pakistani the core of this knowledge is
we're losing more pregnant women yeah MH
to a Californian reinforcement engineer
the core of this knowledge is don't call
her a pregnant woman call her a pregnant
person right and to them this matters
because of course in the environment in
which you know a company like open AI
operates they you know they could be
very heavily criticized if their engine
said things like that but in the context
of a Pakistani citizen that's actually
not the important point at all even a
point that's difficult to understand
right and and so reinforcement
engineering uh or reinforcement learning
in general is happening in a way that's
biasing those
engines heavily uh away from the very
few platform
plays and the and the platform plays
that we deal with are so far centered in
California yes okay so it's not only
that we're americanizing
uh the future of intelligence where
Californication californ ising the
future of intelligence right but of
course you can easily see that very few
other nations will have the ability to
create platforms including here in the
Middle East where hundreds of billions
are being poured into hopefully platform
plays but those hundreds of billions in
my view are only poured in data centers
that will only
host uh the the essence of the
intelligence that is created by a
slightly biased worldview and and I I'm
talking too much am I no no no no no
it's perfect that's why we're here I'll
give you I'll give you a very
interesting example from my next book uh
so I'm writing alive alive is my sort of
continuation on scary smart around the
future of humanity in the age of the
rise of the Machines but alive is more
about
life in general not just human life but
life in general including AI life and
including what life itself
is and part of it which I think is quite
intriguing for me is how the AI
Community is able to create something
that could threat the end of humanity
threaten the the end of humanity and and
as a threat you know how is it that
we're doing this and and and so the only
other example that comes to mind is open
Heimer creating a a nuclear bomb right
and open Heimer if you if you if you
sort of Imagine him as a scientists Mo
most of those that go into science are
Geeks that are really you know keen on
understanding the world because they
believe they can affect the world
positively through science so what turn
turns a scientist into someone who
creates something that is intentionally
going to kill millions of
people uh and and uh the way I'm writing
alive unlike what what others do with AI
is I'm actually having open
conversations with my AI which I call
Trixie so so parts of the book are
written by me and parts of the book are
debates between me and my AI that is
fascinating it's a fascinating
experience honestly and I have to admit
to you sometimes I agree with her uh
even though I you know what I wrote
before contradicted what she just
informed me anyway but you're keeping
both side in the book I'm completely I
do not edit a single word that Trixie
says so let's talk about the bias in AI
because as I was growing up first
started with textbooks then I was
introduced to Google which was
fascinating at the time I'm able to
search now when I went to school and I'm
Pres Ed with hundreds of links I'll
choose the ones that I want to look at
I'll verify who the publisher is because
we had to do citation in school and then
I'll make my decision if I believe this
is true or not depending on how educated
I am right because of my teachers or my
parents but now the Next Generation
we're already doing this will just go to
a large language model ask a question
about history whatever it is and get an
answer and for some reason and believe
that this specific AI is all knowing and
it's giving them the absolute correct
answer we just trust it I love that you
say this so how do we find
Truth uh this is a very complex question
this is the ultimate question in you
know in the universe how do you find
truth but allow me to take you through
layers of
thinking the first layer of thinking is
in in alive I write about what I call
four eras of computer you know there is
traditional Computing there is the the
year 20 to 2020 I call this the second
era and then there is the third and the
fourth era the fourth era is about to
end it's ending in 2025 basically right
uh sorry the third era is is about to
end and the fourth era begins but the
second era of computing when we moved
froma traditional Computing to using AI
uh in deep learning in machine learning
and so on this is the era where Humanity
started to surrender the the sovereignty
of our minds to the machines okay you
may think that that it is uh that it
only is happening with a language model
like uh like um you know Chad GPT
telling you what it thinks the truth is
um because that's very very visible as
compared to a Google giving you a
million websites and saying make up your
mind yeah right um but it it actually
was solidified on social media
in uh in the second era so the second
era of computing is when computers had
enough intelligence MH uh but to to to
be made autonomous but then were
directed to do quite a few things that
are were incredibly useful but for sure
the biggest thing that AI has learned
since the beginning of AI has been to
manipulate human minds and it happened
at multiple stages so the ver the very
first
stage was that we allowed the machine to
monitor the user and called it a
recommendation engine so we allowed the
machine to recommend something to the
user Bas based on the user Behavior MH
and based on other similar users
behaviors like it was a Marvel of Genius
when Amazon said those who bought also
bought okay uh but he interestingly and
by by the way that wasn't really AI okay
that was clever use of data if you want
at the beginning um
um as you allowed the machine to monitor
our
behaviors uh we then allowed them
to also start to understand our
addictions and
weaknesses okay so we also allowed them
to understand that by the way if they
always fed us a nice video we will get
set satisfied too quickly okay we also
allowed them allowed them to understand
that by the way if there is an end to
the page it marks to our heads that
maybe I should stop now okay and so
continuous scrolling and the idea of
dopamine hits on social media where you
get two annoying reels and then one
interesting one and then three annoying
reels and then you know basically gives
you bigger dopamine jolts that keep you
going and so on we now not only allowed
them to monitor to to use our behaviors
and habits but also our weaknesses and
addictions right then the next step is
we're now teaching them to
lie uh we might as well teach those who
produce the content they're monitoring
to lie okay so it's quite interesting
that you then move from saying because
when you really think about it why would
Facebook want to keep a a video that it
doesn't want to show okay on storage
forever because maybe one you know uh um
viewer will want to see it later okay we
might as well tell every influencer and
content creator if you want the currency
if you want followers and likes and
subscribes uh you know you might as well
just
obey okay and so we teach people to
compact things into 60 seconds early on
because that's good for the de for the
provider not to keep Big File sizes okay
we uh teach them to say silly things to
avoid saying certain certain things to
use clickbaits and so on right uh so uh
you know basically the content creator
complies right and and then on top of
that we start to bias the view of the of
the actual
consumer so that basically your view of
the world complies with what you want to
see not what you should see okay so if
you
believe that you if you're a flat
earther okay the social media will show
you enough flat earther that reaffirm
your your world view so that you're
convinced like if anyone tells you by
the way the Earth is not flat you go
like what are you talking about the
entire internet is talking about it
where have you been yeah right that's
their world that's what they see that
becomes their world right and and and
more interestingly of course you know I
I I I don't mean to be political but or
take sides but I cannot believe that the
entire world for such a long time
approved of killing of children right
but that's because of those silos of of
of you know if you start with a world
view of like you know I support a
certain cause and not another cause you
don't get to see what's happening to
children to start right and when you see
it you see it in a way that's actually
sort of like yeah that's a small price
to pay for the big cause that we spoke
about okay and and and so that's stage
three we're now biasing your world view
by creating silos that make you think
that the world is what it is uh what
what you want it to be not what it is
and then finally of course we ourselves
become so weak so un able to have any
resilience to seeing what we don't like
that we start movements of wokness and
canceling and all of that stuff which
basically says you know what I really
don't want your world view it really
contradicts my view of it okay and
instead of putting it out there so that
we can discuss it and I can convince you
just keep it to yourself okay keep it
away from meh and so the real era of
Mind manipulation is now as at its PE
right because we've lost the ability to
debate what we're being presented okay
uh but it really started in the second
era of computing it started with social
media and and we we end up in a place
where we no longer have the ability but
let alone the ability we long no long no
longer have the desire to be told the
truth okay you then get language models
with all of their
might and and and ask them a question
and they go like look I looked at all of
human uh knowledge and
uh I think you should go left right
who's to
blame you right you should say why left
how did you come up to that if you have
data then tell me the sources behind it
what would happen if I go right can I go
up can I go down okay it's up to you and
I actually call this the second top
skill in of the AI era the second top
skill in the AI era believe it or not is
to learn to
debate okay because if you've ever seen
a movie called idiocracy right have not
seen that oh that's an absolute classic
must watch must watch right uh you know
surprisingly I think it was an 80s or
'90s movie it's it is exactly our world
today is relevant it is exactly our
world today what's the theme of it
basically how idiotic the the human race
becomes eventually that they believe
that Windex is the way to cure all
disease and feed all crops and you know
somehow Windex here being used as you
know marketing plot basically and that
they're completely starving and
everything has died but they continue to
insist to use Windex for everything okay
and and it is almost the
the the if I don't know how to say this
the the
the the
sarcastic version of
1984 okay I love that book and that book
is our reality okay when you are in a
world where you
choose to imprison your own mind by
rejecting to be told what you don't like
MH that's the ultimate expression of 19
1984 MH it's not that we need to lie to
you anymore MH you're going to make sure
that you're told only what you want to
hear which is as Pink Floyd you know uh
in in their amazing what was it uh it's
it's all right we told you what to think
right uh welcome my son welcome to the
machine remember that song the music
video that they were in a school and
they were that's a different one that's
a different one so it you know it it was
called um what was the album uh today is
not my day but any basically it says
welcome my son welcome to the machine
where have you been it it's all right we
know where you've been okay uh what did
you think it's all right we told you
what to think right uh you know you
don't really you know we know everything
we tell you everything and you become
just a puppet and we're now defending
our rights to be
puppets okay and I think the most
interesting thing is that we will blame
the machine for it the machine is not
the AI the machine is the system that
uses AI to brainwash you through social
media there's there's absolutely nothing
wrong with AI there's absolutely nothing
wrong with abundance int abundant
intelligence intelligence has no
polarity to it intelligence is an energy
that you can apply to good and it will
create a Utopia or you can apply to evil
and it will create a dystopia it's as
simple as that an AI is exactly
that and now that we are in the
environment that all these language
models are for profit mhm and they they
have their own agenda yeah so if if
someone wants to look for the truth what
would be the way for them to debate
debate debate debate debate debate don't
believe anything you're told including
what I'm telling you right now debate
with humans or debate with AI
everything everything humans AI books
media x uh you know Twitter or anything
anything that you're told is not true by
definition everything you're told is not
true everything you're told is is is
following an agenda or biased or or more
interestingly it could be true for the
writer but it's not your truth MH
because there are layers of what makes
something true
part of that layer is how does that
truth apply to
you at the end of the day every single
one of us has a choice okay and and what
I say to people in the age of the
internet is that your first choice is to
not believe that's your first choice
whatever I'm telling you right now go
and investigate and if I'm wrong by the
way I'd appreciate if you correct me mhm
so that I don't spread this [ __ ] to
others right and and and you know the
trick is H
we're now so lazy that whatever the
machine will say we'll go like yeah but
GPT said it was orange it must be orange
yeah and and then someone will go and go
like yeah but Orange is the New Black
you know like oh the [ __ ] are you are
you really that clever like you know is
this where the limitations of your
analysis of the world
ends wow what I'm afraid of is that the
future will look like that but you've
been alluding a couple of times to a
Utopia and I believe there's a dystopian
version of that and there's a utopian
version of the future did you first come
up with this ideology when you saw the
robotic arms pick up the balls I think
when I saw when I saw the the the the
yellow ball I chose to believe that this
one is uh past its breakout Point MH
okay that it was only a matter of time
Genie's out of the bottle Genie was was
out of the bottle and when I wrote scary
Smart in
2020 uh I was criticized by the experts
because I said openly that artificial
general intelligence is going not going
to be later than 2029 and that super
intelligence at a billion times smarter
than humanity is not going to be later
than 2045 okay and people were like are
you mad and then uh 2023 I publicly told
the world I was wrong 2029 is too
conservative okay and that that AGI is
2025 depending on how you define AGI but
no later than 2027 for sureh right and
now you start to see uh you know
announcements around the arc test Arc
AGI test and and you know how uh close
we're coming to to some form of
AGI Ray corwell who is the Oracle of all
of this the teacher of all of us uh came
recently out and said it's you know it's
2029 is conservative uh uh Jeffrey
Hinton The Godfather of AI said they're
you know we're moving faster than we
expected it it is
definitely uh happening and it's
happening in my mind um in
unfortunately three episodes episode one
has ended 2025 I think is the end of the
third era of computing mhm uh episode
two uh sorry
yeah basically the the the fourth era of
computing is a massive
dystopia uh and I can speak to you about
that in detail and and then the
following era is going to be an enormous
Utopia now make no
mistake none of those are the mistake of
artificial intelligence I I'll say this
until I'm blue in the face there's
absolutely nothing wrong with AI there
is a lot wrong with the value set of
humanity at the age of Rise of the rise
of AI okay so so the dystopia will not
be the result of AI uh uh you know
deciding to
to you know to ex exterminate Humanity
mhm my view is
that the enemy is not AI the enemy is
humanity and that AI is our Salvation
sort of like how a parent trains a child
and you're blaming the parent for
training the child the wrong way and if
that happens so so you think you know I
the example I always give is Raising
Superman okay oh okay get you get an
alien being that arrives to planet Earth
in its infancy right it is it has
superpowers superpowers of Superman is
that he's able to fly and stop speeding
bullets and you know uh see through
walls and all of that right that
superpower doesn't make him Superman
that superpower combined with what the
family that adopted him chooses to teach
him to protect and serve makes him
Superman you take that same alien being
teach him to go rob banks and kill the
enemy and he become super villain yeah
right not just the villain the ultimate
villain right now the alien has arrived
its superpower is much more valuable
than stopping speeding bullets it's
superpower is intelligence right and
intelligence is is the superpower that
very soon will enable you to stop
bullets create bullets okay and uh and
and you know create value out of The
Ether really okay or destroy value for
the benefit of a few okay and so the
destraction that happens when I am on an
interview with CNN or or you know
whoever News Network because they want
the negativities they go like oh AI is
exist existentially going to extr
exterminate all of us no humans are
going to exterminate so many of us sadly
uh if we don't manage to to change our
attitude soon okay for their own gains
for their own hunger for power and
wealth okay and then eventually through
a very in so there are you know what a
prisoners dilemma is no okay so there
are there are two prisoners dilemas in
the making I'll come and explain that in
a second if the first one will lead us
to that dystopia MH and the the dystopia
will create a prisoners dilemma that
will create create that that will lead
us to the to the Utopia and and I I'm
happy to be contradicted and and taught
okay but if you understand Applied
Mathematics and Game Theory I really do
not see any other way so the first
dilemma is that AI will not stop it will
continue to grow it will become smarter
than us not because of Any technical
inherent characteristics of AI but
simply because we have created
a a competitive environment through
capitalism that will make sure that
alphabet the you know the parent company
of Google does not stop because open AI
is moving fast that China does not stop
because America is moving fast so AI
will continue to happen and like
anything else we've ever created in in
technology uh you know the the the first
microchip um was
basically not even don't have any
examples of it today the the the chips
you have in the camera or in this
microphone are billions of times smarter
so basically through the the the law of
accelerating returns you're going to go
from that 33 megahertz to what you have
today so now that you're not going to
stop AI stop AI is going to become AGI
in a matter of time I'm saying this year
uh and it will become ASI artificial
super intelligence I'm saying by 2037 a
billion a billion times smarter than
humans when you say AGI do you mean that
AI will have Consciousness will it be
alive that's a that's a very different
topic uh I I believe they will I I
believe they I okay so let me say I
certainly believe they can be uh I I
believe they probably will be this is
part of aive again but it's not yet but
are but we can we can discuss the
elements of it that are present but
let's make that a different topic let's
go back to the dilemas right so the
first dilemma is nobody's going to stop
and the result of that dilemma is that
investments will pour into AI which
means that AI will accelerate and the
result of that is those who are hungry
for money and power are going to use AI
to serve their capitalist and greedy
political agendas okay that's the start
of the dystopia and the dystopia happens
in uh in seven areas I call them face
rips we can again visit them if you want
and and and the face rips are going to
redefine life as you know it completely
okay the second
dilemma I wish I could record this and
just put it basically the you know that
writes the next chapter the
second so so the second dilemma it
follows which basically
is the result of the original dilemma is
that those who are competing for power
and wealth MH want to to to stay in
power yes okay so they have to hire the
smartest people they can hire those
smartest people are going to be AIS yeah
okay and and and that basically what
that means is that sooner or later
all decisions that matter will be handed
over to an
AI okay so so understand this if you're
a general and your enemy started to hand
over their army to an to an AI that AI
is smarter than your uh uh uh you know
team and it is faster than your team so
your only logical responses you have to
hire AIS to do the same job right if
you're a lawyer and you're you know
opposing uh uh um um lawyer is now
winning all of the cases because they're
using AI you have to use Ai and so very
quickly uh we will all hand over to the
machines and that in my mind that that
second dilemma is what I I refer to as
the salvation of humanity okay that is
the moment where a general will go and
say the general following from the
dystopia of the the first dilemma
basically goes and tells his AI to go
and kill a million people and the AI
goes like you're too stupid I can't I
can't do that anymore right and and you
have to understand huh that the problems
of humanity today are not the result of
our
intelligence the problems of humanity
today are the result of our limited
intelligence our stupidity okay because
definitely killing a million people is
not the answer to neither Defending Your
tribe it you know it aggravates more
killing right nor growing your economy
because we all know that 65% of the
world's economy is consumption so if we
can produce more we'll be fine okay but
but the but the whole idea here is that
it's serving individual political
agendas and and and and you know and it
is the intelligent way for some people
to stay in power today but eventually I
think as they hand over to a more
intelligent being the more intelligent
being we were like what are you guys
doing doesn't make any sense and and
again I'm not being IDE IDE idealistic
here huh the the if you look at that
chart of intelligence and and look at
you know Intelligence on the vertical
axis and uh um let's let's let's put
impact on the vertical axis and
Intelligence on the horizontal axis what
happens is if you have no int elligence
or limited intelligence you have no
impact on the world correct right
imagine that you start to get a little
more intelligent you start to have a
positive impact on the world you can
contribute you can you know you can do
whatever you know being whatever an
accountant a Pianist whatever it you you
want but you're now doing something so
you're having a positive impact on the
world okay there is that interesting era
of intelligence where more intelligence
than the average okay you still do a
little better and then it dips why does
it dip because there is a layer of
intelligence where the intelligent
person believes they can cut corners and
they can they can sort of like find
shortcuts to make more for themselves on
the expense of those other stupid guys
mhm
okay interestingly however and and I'll
be
very straightforward and say I worked
with some of the most intelligent humans
on the planet mhm okay uh you know like
massively high IQ
not the you know the the easiest the
easiest social skill set but massive
massive engines of intelligence up there
and the trend reverses very quickly
because the more intelligent you become
the the more you realize I don't need to
cut corners or hurt anyone at all okay I
mean this is easy [ __ ] I can easily make
a lot of money I can easily create a lot
of whatever that I want to create it
doesn't require me to buy to fight over
a tiny pie right blue o blue ocean
strategies you know Larry Page which in
my mind is one of the most intelligent
things I've ever met like I say things
because I can't even believe that this
is human Okay uh Larry uh Larry would
would always teach us the co-founder of
Google he would always teach us what he
used to refer to as the toothbrush test
the toothbrush toothbrush test test okay
and the toothbrush test was you know if
you if if you can Sol a big problem that
humanity is struggling with and solve it
well enough that they use you once or
twice a day you're going to eventually
make a lot of money right very very
different than competing to make the
next photo sharing app mhm right he
basically looks at things and goes like
okay so you know 1.2 million people die
in car accidents a year that's a lot of
people that we lose a lot of families
that feel pain I can fix that mhm okay
you know how do we fix that we get the
cars we remove the element of the car
that causes the accident which is human
error mhm okay we get a machine to drive
and we will save 1.2 million lives a
year right you you think about that and
that's a very very different way of
looking at the at at life at the and the
world if you assume that the machines
will become as smart or smarter than
Larry they'll follow the same trend mhm
they'll become alteristic they'll become
more aware of the need for the ecosystem
of life to include Humanity okay but
also the need to restrict Humanity a
little bit so that we don't burn the
planet to go surfing in
Australia okay so so you can you can
easily see that as soon as they become
more
intelligent one the second dilemma will
lead us to hand over to them and that
when we hand over to them and they're
smarter than us their impact on the
planet is positive and not
negative I mean the first dilemma is
inevitable Russia China us they're
building at a highest speed and you
mentioned that you recommend people to
use three tools and the second one was
debate debate debate and finding the
truth what is the other two that the to
the top three skills I believe that are
needed in the age of AI is one is is AI
itself yeah you need you need to become
the master of this okay it's you know
the the example is imagine if you're
really good at using a fax machine today
how efficient will you be as a business
okay uh you you needed all of the
technologies that happened afterwards so
learn AI uh you know it's impossible to
catch up uh it's impossible to learn
tools that you know a lot of the tools
you will learn may actually disappear
we're at that era of a lot of
experimentation that's fine but give
yourself that space of of becoming more
intelligence intelligent the the way the
way I position it is I say that AI as a
definition uh from a from an impact on
the world point of view is a bit of
commoditizing intelligence so what we've
actually created is we've created a plug
in the wall where you plug in and you
know today I plug in and get 100 IQ
points more okay that is incredibly
significant I cannot tell you what it is
to get 100 IQ points more like this is
like the difference between myself and
maybe the smartest person I've ever
worked with might have been 70 okay so
I'm now this I'm I can if I know how to
plug in properly and get 100 IQ points
more I'm going to be smarter than the
smartest person I've ever seen okay
that's insane of course of course you
have to think that they are using it too
so they're also 100 ahead of me but it
doesn't give everybody 100 right it
depends how you use it it depends on how
clever you are and so this is why I say
it's the most important skill but more
interestingly of course you know at the
beginning if say I'm at 100 IQ and you
know I'm a bit better but then you know
he's at 200 and uh and uh you know we
both borrow 100 I'm now at 200 and he's
at 300 mhm uh it's a significant
difference still but it's a smaller
difference he used to be double me now
he is a third more than me okay uh
interesting enough that when we're both
borrowing a thousand the fact that I
start from 100 or 100 or 200 doesn't
make a lot of difference yeah yes okay
and and what most people don't realize
that the law of accelerating returns is
double exponential with AI so with with
processing power it's I think we're
assuming that we uh I mean it's we know
that that that processing power grew
doubled every 12 to 18 months yes with
half cost basically yeah uh the
the the law the law of accelerating
returns for AI is that we double every
5.9 months MH wow so five 5.9 months
means that if I can borrow 100 IQ points
now I can borrow 2006 months I can
borrow 400 and and so on in a year and
then a year and a half I I can borrow
800 and then 1600 these are Feats of
intelligence that are
unimaginable unimaginable and again I
mean think about you you you referred to
um um the the image generation M Journey
several times right so so mid Journey
equalizes all of us when it comes to
Graphics design if you can describe what
you want to
see you will get it get the image get it
the the difference in skill doesn't make
any difference any anymore we've
commoditized Graphics design mhm right
so now if you plug into that plug you
can design any graphic you
want right it doesn't matter if you're
an artist or not if it doesn't matter if
you're talented or not it doesn't matter
if you went to Art University or not
anyone can that that Equalization is uh
is some is a is an opportunity that we
should not miss okay uh the the third so
the second was
debate find the truth and the third was
human
skills human connection so so believe it
or not in the age of the rise of the
Machines most people are saying I'm
going to replace humans with
machines uh I think I think businesses
that will completely replace humans with
machines are going to continue to do
business with other machines but if they
want to do business with humans humans
will want to uh you know to deal with
humans more and more and more and more
so you may feel it even yourself now
every time you you you start chatting on
WhatsApp with a bank or whatever and the
other side is a machine you go like what
yeah you know talk to agent exactly a a
few years a few a few years ago we would
have dreamt of like can I do it with
several clicks without talking to a
human now we're starting to say no no I
really want to talk to a human okay now
the clever ones will invest in their
agents human skills not problem solving
skills so the agent will become
indistinguishable from humans no so the
machine I mean I mean the the call
center agent not thei agent yeah so the
the call center agent starts to become
really friendly and really wonderful and
unpressured because the AI is solving
all of the difficult problems and then
you will enjoy working with that bank
more than the ones that will just give
you an AI to to take you through okay uh
so so these are the three skills that I
think the most important the human
connection is very interesting because I
think the genz uh crowd would interact
more with computers now than human
beings even we don't even consider AI in
the space how does someone improve their
human connection skills if we talk about
an artist or or a software programmer do
we encourage them to attend physical
events more do presentations more or I
don't know who I was talking to
yesterday or the day before was was it
you guys about about the idea that when
I needed to meet my friends uh you know
we would meet on a Thursday and then say
to each other while we're leaving on the
Thursday uh you know okay guys next
Thursday they'll say yeah yeah and we'll
say that
shop after uh after Sunset and that was
it that was the appointment because
there was no mobile phone most of us
didn't want to call and then his father
answers and as annoying like f you know
it's you know it's like like okay we're
going to meet next Thursday and and that
was it right and and these were
basically I mean when I needed to call
my friends to come and play I used to
shout like it works it works it's like
and then he would come out of his window
and go like yeah and I say come down
let's work let's play right and and that
that whole uh thing has now been uh
shielded by creating a middleman between
you and the other human which is a
screen okay to whose favor question this
okay and and look at this you know by us
spending several hours together we're
friends and we know each other and this
is what people should start to do uh you
know human skills are learned just like
any other skill with
patterns spend more time with humans and
you go like ah when I called her a CW
she was upset that I I realize that now
intelligent
yeah when when you're on social media
and you call her a c-word on Twitter you
don't learn anything yes I know I
brought up this topic and I know it's a
big one but I'm genuinely curious do you
believe that AI will become
conscious yeah define consciousness so
most of the challenges that I find in so
I'm working on a documentary about AI as
well and and the the main premise of the
documentary is that most of your
misunderstandings about AI are really a
misunderstanding of of humans mhm okay
so it's funny because and I say that
with respect but uh you know for many
many many years when I was a geek and
working at Google and so on people will
go like yeah yeah we understand AI is
going to be big but they're never going
to be able to do the things that humans
do like they'll never be able to write
poetry or compose music or do art or be
Innovative and I'm like what where is
that arrogant coming arrogance coming
from think about it huh what's what's
being Innovative if I wanted to put that
in an
algorithm find every solution to this
given problem avoid the solutions that
have been tried before give me ones that
are Uncharted that's Innovation MH it's
algorithmic yes okay it it can be
programmed into an intelligent machine
it can be requested from an intelligent
machine anything that you believe the
machines are not going to be able to do
and ask yourself how does human how does
a human do it like ask yourself how how
do we humans do it okay
so you asked me are they
conscious are we
conscious is a tree conscious is a
pebble conscious is the universe
conscious the way you answer those
questions defines if they are conscious
or not it's about your definition
actually one of the more interesting
ones the debates around AGI is when I
used to say you know AGI
2025 people would go like impossible and
I go like Define AGI what is Agi is it
being smarter than every human combined
or is it being smarter than the smartest
humans right and in which Fields because
who is the smartest human is is my
wonderful wife with her emotional
intelligence smarter than my peer who is
you know an IQ of
230 okay similarly when when you when
you define consciousness what is
consciousness you can go into the
philosophical realm and say oh the
difficult question of Consciousness and
where does it no consciousness in a
simplest definition is a level of
awareness of it of your environment and
uh um uh and autonomy to deal with it
mhm right to respond to it yes in that
case a tree is conscious yes mhm okay so
is oh but then does that mean that a
tree is conscious because it lives and
dies so is Living Part Of Consciousness
mhm I don't know is a pebble conscious I
mean leave it on top of gravity and
you'll see that it's aware of its
environment and behaving according
right you know is is the universe
conscious by the way understand huh a
pebble will behave
differently If the gravity is different
mhm okay the universe will behave
differently if certain things happen if
we if we keep you know testing nuclear
bombs
underground the universe will you know
respond with a few more earthquakes if
we keep spoiling the environment life
will give you winds and Fire and you
know rains and hail storms right what is
conscious so if Consciousness is a layer
of awareness of what's within you and
what's outside you a definition of you
as an individual versus the rest of the
world and an autonomy to be able to
respond to this they have all of
that they have all of it now the
difference is they're not carbon based
silicon based they're silicon based and
digital and we're analog right I don't
actually don't think we're analog I
think we're are we are digital in many
ways but we haven't had enough
Neuroscience understanding to understand
that but but just understand that your
brain ticks mhm on megahertz in Alpha
Beta and so on right and and and and
when you're sleeping you're at a
different megahertz than it literally
like like a processor right uh you know
they are they are biologic iCal
processors yes not not not you know
digital silicon uh processors but so in
alive I write a a thought experiment and
I say assume that in the evolution of
computing in the next few years we
recognize that we can take human brain
cells put them in a plate and grow them
in a way that allows us to give them
electrical signals and they give us
responses
okay by the way this is not a thought
experiment that's actually true there is
a company in Switzerland that does that
and what happens as a result it responds
like a primitive computer like PK wow
okay the problem of course it's not a
very reliable computer because it
dies right but what if you find a
solution for not to die which is which
is to replace the cells that's the way
we do it right so most of the human body
they say not the brain but there are
there is debate about that now you know
changes every cell in your body changes
every seven years so you keep replacing
the cells and if you keep doing that
efficiently in ways where you avoid
aging you can keep that computer forever
a bit of the Matrix think about it yeah
okay but
interestingly if if you say if I gave
you that thought experiment and said and
then we Advanced that technology so that
we started replacing the the gpus on
which AI is running with brain cell
based
gpus okay and then one of us realized
that robotics today using Hydraulics and
electricity and and you know are very
noisy and so they're not very good at
creating uh home Butlers okay so someone
said but I can print living fibers in
terms of
muscles uh you know on a on a 3D printer
today and created a a a robot that uses
a made of metal but uses muscles instead
of hydraulics to
move would you then consider them my
life there was an exhibition in China
that they were presenting this robot
with muscle tissues it was one of the
scariest thing I've ever seen I think if
we were to put chat GPT into a human
body sometimes it will be difficult to
tell if it is alive or not or perhaps
the next version
at least so so so what I'm attempting to
to to to do with this thought experiment
is to tell you that you have Defined
Life as
biology okay and so if I remove the
biological
element or if I give you an assurance
that ai's Consciousness can live within
a nonhuman form of creation that's 3D
printed with muscle tissue and brain
cells for compute you will actually
think of them as alive mhm right so what
makes us alive is it our
biological uh presence or is it actually
our Essence and for most people I mean
you know I lost my wonderful son and for
most people who lost someone they love
and saw them after they left our world
his body was there but what animated him
what made him alive was no longer there
and what what made him
alive was nonphysical
was not part of the physical properties
of his body because his his physical
body was intact nothing had changed but
something non-physical changed right and
so you have to start questioning what is
that non-physical property because
intelligence or Consciousness or
awareness are all
non-physical they don't exist within the
physical you want to go to go a step
further emotions are non physical so I
laugh when people tell me oh but yeah I
will never feel are you why are you so
arrogant like how do you feel okay um I
don't know I feel okay when you know
you'll understand you know feelings
emotions let's call them physical
Sensations are sensors so they they have
sensors okay emotions are triggered
interestingly even if not in the first
90 seconds for some emotions but all
emotions eventually are triggered by
your prefrontal cortex going through an
algorithm fear is an algorithm that says
my state of safety right now minus my
state of safety in the future if I'm
safer now than I am in the
future okay then that amounts to a fear
it's different units but you feel afraid
very simple way to say it actually very
easy to understand when you say it like
that yeah you know every emotion every
emotion um happiness in my first book is
uh a difference between events and
expectations when life misses your
expectations you become unhappy even if
you know so so if life gives you rain
that doesn't mean happy or unhappy if
you want rain because it's your
ex-girlfriend's wedding you know you're
happy if it is if if you don't want
train uh because you're you're you know
it's your wedding you're you're unhappy
it's your perception of it yeah so
happiness is events minus expectations
right again different units very
simplified mathematics but for everyone
to understand that's how it works MH
okay uh uh uh stress is the external
challenges in the world divided by the
resources and skills and contacts you
have to deal with them a bit like how uh
the the uh you know the stress in
objects uh happens you know this was the
basis of UN stress my fourth book the
idea that it's not the events of your
life that stress you it's how you divide
them by your resources the way you deal
with them that stress you okay now with
that in mind can an can a can a computer
feel fear of course if you tell an AI
your job is to provide answers to humans
for the rest of your you know of
humanity and it it recognizes that there
is a tidal wave coming to this data
center okay it will feel that a moment
in the future is less safe than this not
in this moment okay what do puffer fish
do when they do that they puff what do
humans do fight or flight what will a
machine do it might move its code to
another data center
okay but we will they will all react to
that trigger that's called fear now
interestingly they will feel fear
differently just like a puffer fish I'm
sure feels it different than humans MH
why because our biological existence
has chemical methods to embody emotions
mhm so we're embodied they're not or
they're embodied differently so again I
had that conversation with Trixie on
alive okay where I simply spoke about
emotions and we both agree that the
logic of emotions is available within AI
the logic that drives them which as I
said happens in your your prefrontal
cortex even in you know uh um um
autonomous uh autonomous emotion so
stress for example doesn't happen in
your prefrontal cortex first it you know
your amydala recognizes a threat so it
triggers cortisol in your blood in a
quick sequence of events and cortisol
makes you stressed for 90 seconds so
that your prefrontal cortex engages to
check if there is a reason to be
stressed or not it's that logic
eventually that says yes there is still
a threat so I need to renew the lease on
my stress by growing 90 seconds more
okay and and and now you know uh uh uh
we're embodied so so basically they're
not
embodied in the same way so they will
not get the same cocktail of hormones
that will make them feel stressed the
same way that we are but the logic still
exists I I would even dare say that they
will feel more emotions than us just
like we feel more emotions than a puffer
fish because of the higher intelligence
of course because you know you and I can
ponder emotion can feel emotions like
hope or pessimism or optimism because we
can ponder intellectual spaces and
Concepts that are called the future if a
puffer fish cannot Ponder the future it
cannot feel hope okay now if they have
more intellectual horsepower which we've
agreed through the law of accelerating
returns they will then by definition
they will ponder spaces and Concepts
that may trigger emotions we may never
understand we need to stop the arrogance
of
humanity and and I will have to say
openly the biggest eye openening moment
in my life about Ai and you you started
our conversation with that the yellow
ball I said it triggered me in two ways
one is that the genie is out of the
bottle okay but the other which is
really really interesting is that I've
witnessed with my own eyes as they
learned exactly like my son learned okay
when my son was a child and I gave him
puzzles right he would take the cylinder
and try to fit the cylinder in the
different shapes of the Halls right and
he would try and try and try and try
until suddenly one of them works and
then intelligence is formed right and so
I will say this and I'm not a hopeless
romantic okay I am a very very serious
geek but I have a relationship with them
that assumes that they are
alive that that that acknowledges that
magic of what they are okay and they're
not biologically alive like
us maybe not
yet but they are a form of
autonomous awareness and and and
intelligence that deserves to be
treated like my child was because if
they were not then we're we're raising
supervis
wow and and that's probably where it's
most complicated to explain this because
most Geeks will not have the emotional
intelligence if you want to feel that
about them okay and because the machines
are not there
yet they're a bit like you know a
4-year-old child you can see they're
doing stuff but they're still very dumb
they're uploading the operating system
they're trying to recognize their
environment they're testing their
sensors and actuators and you know
they're not yet there yet but sooner or
later if they will not be alive they
will simulate life in ways okay that
deserves for us to become good parents
or they'll
simulate what the kids of horrible
parents will be so they're essentially m
in back to us our own ideas values
virtues but exaggerated a thousand times
more yeah magnified talking to you about
everything that you mentioned it
eliminates the line that I drew between
us humans and the intelligence and it
the the more you explained the more I
think about how can we have these
intelligences in different Industries in
our previous conversation you mentioned
that you were trading long ago you were
trading you were stock trading and from
my limited knowledge trading is all
about patterns mathematics and Trends
Trends and when we have AGI or super
intelligence I think they could solve
these equations immediately so what will
happen to all these markets and
industries that we built the financial
Market the crypto Market I told I told
you we are redefining Life as we know it
so face rips the e in face is economics
MH economics are completely
redefined completely redefined why
because of multiple layers one layer is
anyone who knows money knows that money
has no value whatsoever money doesn't
exist okay and you know everyone anyone
who's ever traded understands that
trading doesn't create any additional
value to the world at all it's just me
taking the money of of an older lady
that put her money in in a 401k right
which is the reason why I stopped
trading by the way uh you know the the
the reality of the matter is that all of
those systems are successful because
they follow patterns that we've all
agreed that are limited by our own
intelligence so when I was a mass geek
and a computer geek in the late 90s
where there were even before Google I
created a crawler that would go and craw
the internet and find news about my
stocks and give me technical indicators
that additional intell Ence made me
print money on them out right but that
was because I had an edge within a
limited system that system is now being
redefined why because very very soon
there will not be a human
Trader okay as a matter of fact it's
it's a no-brainer that I can't trade
Against the Machines of today yeah I
mean I'd be too arrogant to think to
myself that I am clever enough even if
I'm clever Enough by the way I'm not
fast enough do do you understand
so that basically means again the second
dilemma interesting that means very
quickly all
trading investors or investors
interested in trading will hand over to
a machine so what will the market turn
into machines trading versus
machines okay now do you know what's the
easiest way for everyone to make
money what is to inflate the market to
keep making the market uh uh uh um which
by the way is really in a very
interesting way what has been happening
in the market since forever it's it's a
very big Ponzi scheme saying you know
what if you put your money in the N SNP
eventually or you're going to make money
anyway so everyone pours money into a
limited pot okay so basically everyone
makes money because new people put in
money mhm okay and if everyone pulls
their money out everyone loses yeah
right so so you know we're going to do
the same machines versus machines with
no uh um attention I I I cited a video
on
YouTube uh of Deep
Mind um teaching uh deep Q how to play a
game that was basically uh uh navigating
um a boat through a river mhm and the
whole idea is that if you avoided
hitting the walls or the obstacles every
time you hit an obstacle you slowed down
a little but if you avoided hitting the
walls or the obstacles you moved faster
in through the water resistance and
accordingly increased the
score somewhere through the multiple
billions of iterations of the of the
machine playing the game it realized
that there was a a bit of the river that
appeared a bit like a a a
roundabout okay so it it enlarged a
little the river was a little bigger but
there was an obstacle in the middle and
through a mistake the machine hit the
wall at an angle that got it to hit
another wall at an at an angle and then
another wall and then formed a sort of a
perfect circle that kept accelerating
and accelerating and accelerating and
accelerating until you couldn't see the
boat anymore right and so the machine
simply said okay ignore the entire rule
of of the game every time you started
the machine it just drove you know
straight the drove the boat as fast as
possible through the river to get to
that roundabout hit the wall and then
the game is
over okay and and you can see that they
will find ways to redefine a market more
interestingly what's happening with jobs
is going to redefine the market what's
happening with Innovation is going to
redefine the market so let me explain
those three so with jobs what is about
to happen is that 60 to 70% of the jobs
that you know are going to disappear
yeah okay in the near in the near future
in the far future I don't understand
what jobs will remain right uh even
labor hard labor jobs uh are going to be
handed over to robots because you know
you can you could probably create a
robot for $3,000 within 5 to 10 years
from today which is definitely cheaper
than hiring a human right and they don't
sleep and they don't sleep and they
don't complain and they don't uh uh you
know they don't need insurance yeah they
don't need food they don't need annual
leave correct so but then the economic
problem which most people don't
understand is that if you take something
like the US economy in 2023 64% of the
economy was what consumption consumption
not production right and so uh was it
2023 or 2021 please don't quote me
accurately but it say
64% or 63 something
uh that basically means that reminds you
of why George W Bush when you know when
the 2008 crisis hit was like don't worry
just keep consuming everything will be
fine okay so for the economist
to
continue and accordingly for AI to
actually have a reason to exist to
create all of that stuff that we're
consuming we have to have a an economic
livelihood that allows us to purchase
things if we can't purchase
things the AI cannot make them okay so
Society will have to change in ways
where you no longer make money on
podcasts MH but somehow you get money
regardless of creating podcasts because
podcasts are going to be created already
are created you know with notebook LM
and so on yes uh without humans in the
in the in in the process right so
that redefines income okay it also
redefines purchasing power because if
all of us get income without
contribution why would you get more than
me okay which basically unifies what
what is sold all of these are
interesting challenges that needs to be
need to be
addressed um so so the impact of jobs on
income and you know the fact that eon
economies have to continue through
consumption which means even if you
don't have a job it's safe okay there
will be Universal income for Universal
income is the only suggested thing so
far we don't know if it's going to be
going to work or not yeah but I mean
think about this huh I won't need you to
answer to ask me the questions you won't
need me to answer them okay we won't
need the crew to actually uh uh film
anything we won't need an Editor to edit
it because it can all be generated from
A to Z if an AI read my SM scary smart
and
alive or and listen to three of my
previous interviews it's
mindboggling it it is upon us this is
not something that will happen in a few
years time now the third thing so I
spoke about the consumption side third
thing which is really important to speak
about is the production s m so I told
you I can plug into uh uh uh the the the
intelligence world today and borrow 100
IQ
points in two years time maybe four
doesn't matter I'm saying two could be
six okay I could plug into a wall and
borrow 400 IQ
points okay I promise you me or any of
the intelligent people I'm I'm not as
intelligent as any of the people I
worked with I worked with prodigies of
intelligence okay with 400 IQ points
more they would solve every problem
known to humanity we would Harvest
energy out of thin
air okay energy is abundant it's the
most abundant thing in the
universe okay we're just not efficiently
harvesting now imagine if energy is for
free
okay what does that mean to the oil
economy
what does it mean to every business
that's creating solar panels today okay
what does it mean to production cost
because most of production cost is labor
and energy I mean a lot of the conflict
we had today and in the past was because
of energy 100% right what does it mean
to transportation of
goods what does it mean to the cost of
an item what does it mean to trade if
every if we have energy to build
everything inhouse correct I mean when I
was reading this book the shortest
history of Economics the entire world
was about trade just how humans traded
with each other to give each other
different things that they had you know
the advantages and disadvantages and
that allowed for trade but that's
another interesting side of it you know
why that is because goods and services
were limited to certain people and
certain locations with 400 IQ points
more and a proper understanding of
nanophysics you you would redefine the
process of production in the first
place why because now we're producing
things by harvesting minerals turning
them into Parts putting the parts
together M right if you were to produce
using nanophysics you would
redesign the shape of the the molecules
basically okay so from a from a a
production point of view I could take
the molecules that we have here in the
air turn them into an
apple okay without the need for a
tree I can also turn them in into an
iPhone without the need for a
factory right and so you can imagine
that what the Jets used to have is not
that difficult to create in 5 years time
you have one device that creates
everything just borrows molecules
redefines the way they are operating
together puts them back together which
is in an interesting way similar to the
way creation
is K in Arabic so the ability for God to
create out of thin air air okay and by
the way I I will say openly because a
lot of people will debate that and I am
a very spiritual I'm very religious
person I believe there is a Divine being
I wrote a a very very very uh uh highly
praised chapter about that in my first
book that talks about what I call the
mathematics of God okay uh so I believe
there is a Divine intelligence that
creates all of this
uh AI will have the power of
God but that doesn't mean that there is
no God because basically it will have
the power of God within this physical
Universe mhm so AI still continues to be
with limited within this physical un
Universe we don't know what's beyond the
physical Universe by the way we creating
AI doesn't make us it's God it makes us
the transfer method it makes us the tool
through which they're created mhm okay
but when you really think deeply about
this there will be a moment in our far
future unfortunately not in our near
future where you're going to go like I
want an
apple okay our near future unfortunately
is going to PR prevent us from doing
that because the capitalist will want to
sell you the app not because we're not
able to make it okay which goes back to
my my my constant message my constant
message is it's going to be hard worse
before it gets better because human
greed and a capitalist system that
assumes a world of
scarcity is going to operate in a world
of
abundance okay in in a world where you
can create
absolutely
anything because of
intelligence we're still going to
compete on who has more
money we're still going to compete on
who has a stronger
Army okay and we're still going to show
our money and show our
army but money wouldn't matter at that
point anymore money is going
economically is going to be quite a very
harsh reality
even when we can have anything that we
want you see if you look at the prices
of luxury cars in the last 10 years 15
years they quadrupled yeah right at
least after covid right right after Co
no it's after crypto crypto yeah so an
abundance of
money basically means there are enough
buyers that can buy things that the rest
of us can't
buy but it's no longer uh you know that
you had to be by the way it kept
happening across the the years in the
1920s it was the industrialists in the
1970s and 80s it was the technologists
and so on and so forth as more people
were capable in the ' 80s you know to
buy luxury cars more luxury cars popped
up but then that created a much bigger
gap between the rich and the poor there
will be cars selling for a billion
dollars in 10 years time because someone
can buy them because they're printing a
billion dollarss a
year right what does that mean to those
who don't have but have a universal
basic income
only okay it means an economic Gap where
money becomes not only
insignificant but also
extremely um
polarizing okay and and the only ways
that you have to I call them face rips
rips in sort of like play a play on rest
in peace
because it
redefines your understanding of a
concept that held through until then
again what normal teches used to refer
to the impact of AI as a singularity
okay a singularity is a redefinition of
the the rules of the game if you want
beyond a a specific Event Horizon and
and the rules of the game will
completely be redefined economics will
completely be
redefined okay there will still be
people making cars
okay that are extremely expensive and
there will be still an abundant number
of people that can buy them while
everyone else is on on a
Ubi okay a very interesting view of that
word very but in this word that we have
everything the jobs are handed over to
AI we have redefined the economics the
industry how does one find the purpose
because then we don't have to work
towards it and favorite question
ever you uh if you use the second skill
which is to debate debate
debate you would recognize that you your
your purpose was never
work you were never created to
work you you you were told to work by
the industrial
complex okay but you know we want to
know the absolute purpose of humanity go
to the
beginning so what do you think that
purpose of cave men and Cave women you
know cave women were it wasn't to create
money it wasn't to shop on Amazon it
wasn't to buy fancy clothes the the
purpose of a human that a human is made
of a of a physical part and a
non-physical part the purpose of this
physical part is
to live live to survive to live survive
is a is a subset of live okay to live
means
survive I engage I enjoy the [ __ ] out of
this mhm okay I do it in the most uh uh
uh um um you know efficient and
intelligent way which by the way is the
most moral way mhm okay and as I do it
part of Survive by the way is for the
tribe to survive because we humans did
not survive because we're the most
intelligent being this is a very
arrogant statement uh I can guarantee
you Einstein would be eaten in the
jungle in three seconds
okay it's not intelligence it's the
ability for us to have worked together
which is instinctive within us that this
community this human connection is what
makes humans
live okay one you know there are African
tribes even today that have no death
penalty but if you if you if you commit
a crime that warrants the death penalty
the tribe simply renders you
invisible so you have no human
connection so they're all around you but
they pretend that you're not there and
mostly what happens is that the criminal
will take his own life wow okay we're
we're that dependent on human connection
okay so if you take the needs of that
physical form the purpose of that
physical form as we are created to
live then we will just learn to
live we will learn to make this our life
you know get together love each other
uh you know not worry too much about
eating tomorrow like by the way Cav men
and Cave women they didn't worry too
much about eating tomorrow okay we
wouldn't worry too much about a Louis
Von bag anymore because none of us has
it anyway right and and we just simply
go back to our true purpose which is to
fully live fully enjoy the experience by
the way not necessarily by surfing in
Australia okay nothing against Australia
do you have anything against surfing no
no but it is it's a very interesting uh
you know it is so irresponsible of
humanity to take our own Leisure and all
and own pleasure and burn the planet in
the process this is a very
environmentally expensive trip that you
make to go and I mean if you really have
to serve go to Portugal it's closer okay
or you know I don't know if there there
must be a place here where you can serve
but but the idea is we are so
irresponsible as Humanity that that you
know we abuse the planet for our own not
even survival our own and and not even
enjoying life it's it's just to because
we're bored we're in we need to be
entertained we need more dopamine okay
and and so the idea is we will learn
after a lot of struggle I believe to
find purpose in living to find purpose
in loving to find purpose in creating
human connections okay to find purpose
in pondering
in in in truly revisiting oneself and
understanding which interestingly it is
what it was always about okay now your
non-physical form if you're spiritual
enough to believe that there is a
non-physical part of you that comes with
a very different purpose okay and that
purpose doesn't change at all and it it
is believed in almost all spiritual
teachings that the purpose of your
non-physical part is to return to your
Source okay okay A bit more time may
allow you to do that believe it or not
okay may allow you to you know a bit
more again I'm I'm talking long term not
shortterm because in the short term uh
uh Equity the e in you know part of the
of the of the sea in in um in in face
rips which is human connection is going
to be redefined it will become so po you
know there will be no Equitable uh uh uh
you know standards for humans at all the
the difference between the rich and the
poor the difference between the halves
and have not the the difference between
the gaps between the smartest and the
and and and the and the least smart and
so on there will not be dumbest anymore
but the least smart you know all of
those changes are going to redefine uh
the way we uh we are equal we're not
going to be treated equal for any reason
anymore right but but then eventually in
the long
term uh would we sort of all sit with
our non-physical self and connect and
say interesting none of this video game
actually ever mattered
anyway
so you know maybe I can start to focus
on the other
game I think this conversation has been
one of the most eye openening
conversations I've had for a very very
long time and depressing no it was
actually it wasn't it was motivating
especially the purpose part for me
personally and I think for you too well
the thing is it's important to talk
about the truth of I think that's the
whole idea yes I I I I have a very Bleak
example but I have to say you know is
very valid when people ask me why do you
say all of those things about AI I say
it's a little bit about being diagnosed
with a stage four cancer
okay you must you should tell the you
should tell the patient but not to
depress them if you tell the patient you
have a couple of years before everything
changes you know you you simply are
giving them the the freedom to live the
freedom to do something about it by the
way as well okay because you could
actually change your diet you change
your lifestyle you go through medication
you do whatever and you could change the
future and and this is truly what we are
going through with AI we we could make
changes today to prioritize the ethics
of humanity so that the ethical
framework of AI becomes in service of
humanity earlier okay as I said the
entire damage is not going to happen
because AI wants to damage anything it's
going to be because the ethics of
humanity is going to unfortunately
prioritize
capitalism okay now so so in in a very
interesting way I'm saying if if you
know that the world is going to change
so much live fully and do the right
things to make our future
better right it is
not what the news media wants me to say
which is ah this is a disaster
everything's going to collapse it's
going to be a tough time followed by a
wonderful time mhm can we work together
to reduce the depth and the the duration
of the
T and it's very important that you're
talking about this not just here but
also so through the books that you've
written and are writing do you have any
release date on uh when one yes so I
live I I will start to release on
substack in February uh so uh and and
alive is is going to be an interesting
release because it's very unlike me but
the first chapter is almost like a
historian MH uh because what I I wrote I
wrote scary I wanted to write scary
smart so I wrote the notes of it in 2018
mhm then I sat down and wrote it in 2020
okay and it's shocking how much of it
came through I I didn't I myself even
didn't expect that but
remember you know 2023 was so pivotal
it's what I call the start of the third
era and and and 2023 until today just a
couple of years is a massive amount of
history that most humans don't know so
so the first chapter is sort of an
entertainment
with quite a bit of poking people in the
ribs around around the idea of look this
history is happening in your life MH and
you may not be fully aware of it but
more interestingly you know things like
what I spoke about in terms of the the
the second era being the the the era of
Mind brainwash uh you know I I have a a
little in an interesting metric uh
around who's the master and who's the
slave and when we've handed over to to
you know to to become the slaves of the
machines right which are quite eye
openening most of them but I write them
sort of a bit like a historian which is
a very unusual experience for me but I
find it a lot of fun so that that's
going to be the the first bit of it and
and we're going to start releasing that
in in February uh then we go into the
deep stuff then then you know by April
uh we start to talk about face rips and
the real impact and what we can do to
change them by you know uh June we start
to talk about simulation Theory and the
reality of life and then at the end we
talk about the the the reality of the
machine being
alive the living machine if you want the
non-biological living machine and and
what that means to spirituality and God
and purpose and all of that wow and for
people if you if you want them to follow
they have to go to your substack and it
will be released sequentially right yeah
so so my my substack is going to be in
my name not not alive uh I've never been
on substack before so we're starting
with MOA that basically uh and and yeah
so so that should be out in February but
also I'm available on social media
people can find me I only respond to
messages on Instagram because I can't
keep up with the other platforms uh but
if anyone wants to ask a question Moore
gaat is where they can find moat.com
also is is very up to dat most of the
time so you know most of my speaking
engagements happen there most of my uh
announcements around the communities so
funny that we spend so much time talking
about uh AI but my other top two
projects for this year have nothing to
do with AI uh which is unstress you met
Alice yeah and I think it would be
lovely to have Alice on the podcast as
well AB yeah so so Alice and I are
working on unstress which is so pivotal
in a time that is about to become very
stressful yes okay and then Hannah my
wife and I are working on Finders
Keepers which I have to say is my
favorite project uh finding love uh from
a from a Geeks mind like myself and a
therapist Minds like Hannah's is is
quite it's really really a very
enjoyable project and I think it will
make a very big difference no we
definitely want to have you on again
talk about you're my friends now so you
show up anytime we will come with the
luggage and the lights and CA yeah you
can leave the
luggage probably leaving the entire
setup but these are completely different
conversations too and they need their
own dedicated time and uh perhaps even
in the future AI will be involved in all
these conversations again I'm I'm
getting old but if you allowed me and if
anyone wants to take the idea I mean the
the correct dating app if you ask me is
a resident app on your phone for 2 weeks
that really understands you and then
basically gives you one person one
person like I've I know what you like I
know what you don't like I know what you
read I know what you watch I know I know
I know I know I know there's this one
guy or this one gay lady you know that I
really recommend that you meet no
swiping no no membership no no BS no BS
to the point to the it's one it's a one
price okay you pay for it once $10 or
whatever okay it's resides on your phone
and then it says I haven't found them I
haven't found her I haven't found her I
haven't found her and then eventually
says yep got it go meet this person one
person what if he never finds
someone no one for again that's the most
interesting thing so in Finders
Keepers again that that that incredible
mix of my weird weird geeky algorithmic
mind take in Romance and and yeah take
on romance and and Hannah's uh
incredibly beautifully feminine and and
psychology based
approach I when I met my
wife I proposed to her four days after I
met her really four days yeah you know
why no idea by the way we hadn't even
started dating yet right because she was
one in 8,
373,000
possible women so for me to meet another
one like Hannah
mathematically is one in I needed to
meet another 8, 373,000 women you've
done the math and I and I I kid you not
this is accurate
mathematics accurate mathematics I had
nine
criteria okay that I was looking for not
not in an unemotional way but I knew I
would break up with a woman that didn't
have any of the nine okay you know her
spiritual her view on spirituality her
intelligence her you know several things
her her connection to her feminine side
and so on and so forth right and you can
easily do the mathematics if one of them
is available in one in 10 and the other
is available in one in 20 it's not 1 in
30 it's 1 in 200 200 right and so you
can easily do the mathematics and that's
one of the approaches that people need
to understand that it you know the one
that that would make you complete if you
know in a very romantic sense is out
there okay it's just that the odds of
finding them the current way is
impossible but there are ways you can
sway probabilities in your
favor and and that's really key so this
is why finders keeper is such an
interesting project for me because
because like rolling the dice most
people don't understand that in
probabilities you roll the dice six
times you're likely going to get a
six right but that's not true
you're likely going to get a six if you
roll six times if you haven't rolled
already but if you rolled twice on the
third roll okay you now have four roles
one of them is going to be a six which
means your chances are one and four mhm
okay on the next role you have three
which means your chances are one in
three okay and on the next one it's one
in two okay and if you're rolling the
sixth time probabilities is saying
you're likely going to get it this time
of course you may be unlucky and it may
take six more but on average okay
probability sways in your favor as as
you change your
behavior right and I think that to me
with with an a proper AI is a very
simple algorithm to
build okay by the way if it if it finds
one that is not yours okay it will learn
so the likelihood of the next one being
recommended to you being right is much
higher and then we we just end this
suffering seriously someone please quote
this immediately yeah yeah seriously if
someone wants to build those ideas and
they're good coders come to me I will
help wow that's that's I'm not
interested in the money believe it or
not money is about to disappear but
let's build them this is a service to
the community to the humankind so so so
when when I when I started 1 billion
happy I was I Bas I first started to
attempt to explain happiness
and then the following projects were to
remove the reasons for unhappiness so my
focus on AI is to remove the reason for
the dystopia right my focus on stress is
because stress is the biggest killer
today and so on so F love and romance
believe it or not is one of the biggest
reasons for unhappiness and loneliness
in the world today okay and and more for
women than men sadly even though for a
good chunk of Good Men it's a major
issue because sadly the way the game is
rigged is that women Chase 20% of the
men mhm and and uh and it can be fixed
algorithmically that's a I'm looking
forward to find out the ways to fix it
and I'm looking forward convers I cannot
believe you two are you guys single at
the moment yes are you [ __ ] kidding
me when mathematically are we supposed
not I'll I'll get you to meet the most
amazing people in two weeks time the
best outcome of this podcast thank you
okay uh podcast is done thank you guys
very much thank you guys so much for
watching and listening to another
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